mk blade
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| posted on 13/4/05 at 04:59 PM |
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Blade engine strip down
Started to striped engine last night.
This was due to the gearbox jumping out of gear, when at last track day it started to jump out of 4th gear back into 3rd. Was worse when under load
and thought it was time to have a look before it went all together.
When I had drained the oil it had a few small peices of metal in it, but nothing like I found in the oil pick up pipe. (see attached pic)
Having stripped out the gearbox I can not find any wear on the selector forks and only a little wear on the selector drum . There is some wear on the
drive cogs on the gears but not enough to explain the metal fragments I found.
Tonight will comtinue with the strip down to try and find out where the metal fragment are coming from.
Tony
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chunkielad
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| posted on 13/4/05 at 05:02 PM |
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Sounds worrying mate - firstly there's no pic. Secondly, did you have a baffle fitted? Has this broken down anywhere?
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mk blade
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| posted on 13/4/05 at 05:03 PM |
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Pic here
[Edited on 13/4/05 by mk blade]
 
Rescued attachment oilpickup.jpg
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mk blade
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| posted on 13/4/05 at 05:06 PM |
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No baffle fitted but no problems with oil pressure.
Engine runs sweet, no idea where it is coming from but will find out even if I have to strip every thing.
Tony.
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PAUL FISHER
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| posted on 13/4/05 at 05:57 PM |
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looks serious that tony,no wonder you were so slow on the last track day  ,could be a good time to fit a ZX12
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 13/4/05 at 06:00 PM |
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Are they ally fragments or steel? If the former then its probably nothing to worry about, when I bought my first engine it had lots of small fragments
in the sump, I took it to a Honda mechanic fearing the worse and he said that its common to find ally bits in the sump, the oilways etc sometimes dont
get properly washed during machining and so the machining swarf eventually works its way down into the sump but doesnt do any realy harm, He said
he's even found a complete coil of ally once from where a thread had been cut!
If the latter, then its a bit more concerning, and if so then Andy at AB Performance (01284 703101) might be worth a call. Ive just sold him the last
of my blade engine spares and he seems to know pretty much everything there is to know about blades. He evidently used to race in British Sidecars and
now runs the engine tuning business almost exclusively tuning blades, prepping several RGB race engines amongst others.
Prices seem reasonable too, I think he mentioned around £400 for a strip down and rebuild with new bearings etc, which seemed a good price
considering it would cost us not in the trade probably £200 just for a gasket set!
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 13/4/05 at 06:02 PM |
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BTW, I'd say the gear selection problem is most likely to be bent (rather than worn) forks, not sure how you check that accuretely though
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OX
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| posted on 13/4/05 at 06:48 PM |
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if the engine is a high milage one then it might just be the dogs,they dont need much wear taken off the edges to start slipping out of gear it might
be worth taking them to a dealer for them to have a look at,,i only say this becouse of the few that i have seen its bean 3-4 gear thats starts to
give the grief 
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mk blade
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| posted on 13/4/05 at 08:45 PM |
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Quick update.
Steel fragments and a small bit of plastic.
Oil pump is dead as can be seen. Not sure if the metal fragments are from the pump, but can not find any other place they could have come from.
The main bearings and big ends look like new as does the camshafts. No wear anywear else in engine that I can see appart from the oil pump and the
drive dogs on the gears. 4th gear seems the worst and probably the reason for the jumping out of gear.
Hopefully the metal fragments in the pick up are from the failling oil pump, strange I have never had any problems with oil pressure. A point to note
was that when I striped the pump the dot which is supposed to be on the top was at the bottom. Must have been apart before, could be a reason why it
has failed.
I may have been lucky and caught the problem before it became more serious, I hope.
Just need to get new oil pump, 4th gear and maybe a few other of the gears while I at it. Also new clutch basket, fair amount of wear on that too.
Will take the bits to mechanic to see what he thinks I sould replace.
Tony.
[Edited on 13/4/05 by mk blade]
 
Rescued attachment oilpump.jpg
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mk blade
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| posted on 13/4/05 at 08:47 PM |
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Heres hoping it all goes back together.
 
Rescued attachment engine.jpg
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 13/4/05 at 09:12 PM |
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What year engine is it, looks like an 893 to me? I have got two or three out in the garage from an RRW/RRX but Im sure they are the same.
The guy Andy mentioned above has bought a load of bits off me as a job lot, I'll have to ask him first but Im sure he wouldnt mind one less oil
pump in return for a slightly cheaper deal on the rest
Chris
[Edited on 13/4/05 by ChrisGamlin]
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mk blade
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| posted on 13/4/05 at 10:19 PM |
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Yes its an 893, and no I dont know if a latter pump will fit.
Thanks Tony.
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Rorty
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| posted on 14/4/05 at 04:31 AM |
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I don't know what you pay for gears over there now, but I find it's more cost effective to re-machine the dogs and undercut them on
both sides while at it.
As you say, the pump looks knackered, but I wouldn't worry about the debris in the filter. It is quite common...both steel and aluminium dross.
You only need worry if the steel fragments are blued from severe friction or if there are any bits of cast aluminium with obvious rough faces where
they have broken off.
I also agree with ChrisGamlin; the forks are more likely bent and it's often not visible to the eye. The wear on the fork faces and selector
drum will be negligible.
I would purchase a new fork (forget second hand ones) and if you're seriously into racing, I would have the fork copied from some stronger
material and don't skimp on the material either. The fork will need to be heat-treated.
I went through a couple of forks and eventually got fed up and made a billet one. No problems since, though a lot more abuse. 
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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marc n
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| posted on 14/4/05 at 07:28 AM |
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after several rebuilds on the fireblades check that the selector worm / drum shaft is not worn we had this problem on our racecar, also ceck that the
bolt is still tight on the selector arm as this has a habit of comming loose even with locktiite
the last gear i bought was second and this was approx £50 all new bushings for a blade gear clusters comes in at about £ 100
make sure when rebuilding the assemblies that the oil holes are correctly lined up from bush to shaft
hope this helps
best regards
marc
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 14/4/05 at 08:09 AM |
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MK Blade - if you find out they are the same then gimme a shout before next weekend (cos thats when they are being collected)
cheers
Chris
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Hellfire
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| posted on 14/4/05 at 11:15 AM |
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Tony,
any bits you're after, you are quite welcome to come and have a scrounge in our blue box. Not certain if theres an oil pump but you never know.
Certainly got 4th gear though. We'll be in the chapel this evening.
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Lightning
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| posted on 14/4/05 at 02:17 PM |
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Whilst on this subject, I have noticed that if I do not pull back hard enough on the gear lever between 3rd and 4th I will get a whole load of
neutrals. Is this the first signe of wear as described above?
Steve
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 14/4/05 at 02:47 PM |
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Could be, it might also be slack in your gearchange mechanism, or a bent fork which means it cant properly engage the gear
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tks
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| posted on 14/4/05 at 02:48 PM |
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oeps...
well i think that if you gonna make the selector harder then you eliminate the part that sacrafices...???
i once had a moped/bike (49,9cc one)
an Peugoet 103 with mono vario (the engine could rotate against a spring)
the main bearing worned out one day, i have never find the parts of it..
the hole bearing cage and more as the half of the balls where missing..
after a new bearing it all keeped working good.
It is really strange that the pump is ruined..
the oil pressure light didn't came on
and the bearings etc are all fine..??
If i was you start checking the oil p light, then the switch if they are ok
then you are a lucky guy!
then you have right on time stripped you blade
Regards,
TKS
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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mk blade
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| posted on 14/4/05 at 04:23 PM |
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Thanks for all the advice guys.
Having the gear drive dogs remachined sounds like a good idea but would that not make the surface softer. Would have thought that the surface would
have been hardened.
Priced up a new oil pump today £180 inc vat, gulp.
From local bike scrapers oil pump £20+vat and complete gear box £140+vat.
With regards to oil pressure light not working, on the last track day was able to use data logging and found the oil pressure never have any dips,
apart from when I spun but then only dropped 21psi when I put clutch in and engine was tinking over. No dips in pressure whilst cornering.
Tony.
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tks
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| posted on 14/4/05 at 04:28 PM |
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mhhh
how can a oil pump work in such a state
even when its blown away??
are you sure??
my hayness states that my Honda VFR 800 produces 71PSI (5.0 bar) @ 80degrees and 6000rpm..oil pressure
soow get your conclusions
TKS
[Edited on 14/4/05 by tks]
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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mk blade
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| posted on 14/4/05 at 04:38 PM |
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Just check the data from logging again and average oil pressure from my last run on track was 79.3psi max of 98.4psi with oil temp at 95deg C.
Average rpm from logging was 7101rpm with peak of 11450rpm.
Hopefully I have been very lucky and caught it before it failed all together and caused some major damage.
Tony.
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Rorty
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| posted on 14/4/05 at 09:56 PM |
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Making the selector fork stronger doesn't cause any more wear to the drum as the fork faces are still hardened and polished like the original.
What it does mean is the fork is less likely to bend. The forks in most bikes are the weak link in the selector mechanism. The bike manufacturers make
them slim to reduce weight, but for the sake of a few extra grams, it's worth making a beefier fork to withstand the abuse it will get in a
car.
Most race shops re-machine gears and offer undercutting as part of their service. The material is hard enough because, AFAIK, the gears are through or
induction hardened and not just case hardened. Anyway, it's commonplace and it works.
I forgot to mention, if your drum is in reasonable condition, it may also pay to have it bead-blasted to consolidate its surface. Every little helps.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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tks
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| posted on 15/4/05 at 07:03 AM |
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mhh strange
as you compare
your oil pressue 79psi @ 7000rpm
and mine hayness one 71 @ 6000
well then you could say that your oil pump is working fine..
but still gives me a strange feeling because you all said it was worn..
well it definitly isn't.. then..
TKS
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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mk blade
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| posted on 17/4/05 at 02:14 PM |
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Started to rebuild the gearbox today.
A BIG thanks to Hellfire and Chris mason for the gearbox bits and other pieces.
All the gearbox shafts have been stripped, cleaned, gears replaced and rebuilt ready to got back in.
All other parts that where taken off during strip down have been cleaned ready to got back on or in.
Just need to get new gasket next week so I can build it all back together.
Attached is a picture of my 4th gear, notice the wear on the drive dogs.
Also the 4th gear out of Hellfires old gearbox which is a lot better than mine. There 2nd was nearly as bad as my 4th tho.
 
Rescued attachment my4tha.jpg
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