millenniumtree
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| posted on 28/11/06 at 06:58 PM |
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F1-style engine revving
How do they get F1 engines to go from idle to redline (and back again) in a fraction of a second?
Is it just super light rotating components combined with massive horsepower and low restriction?
Can something similar be done with a car engine? Or at least can you make this response better without completely destroying your engine?
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DIY Si
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| posted on 28/11/06 at 07:04 PM |
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It's, I think, mainly really light internals and a very, very light flywheel (do they actually have one?). Bike engine rev up really quickly
too, albeit not as quick as F1 engines.
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JoelP
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| posted on 28/11/06 at 07:04 PM |
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that is basically what you are trying to achieve when you lighten components. F1 cars take it to an extreme by using exotic alloys, to get light
strong parts, hence how fast the revs can change.
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flak monkey
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| posted on 28/11/06 at 07:05 PM |
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If you think F1 engines redline quick you should listen to a top fuel drag car 
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-4530549599507663097
(watch it to the end)
[Edited on 28/11/06 by flak monkey]
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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BenB
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| posted on 28/11/06 at 07:11 PM |
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Having no flywheel helps....
One reason why bike engined cars seem to rev quicker is their minimal flywheel. The downside is that it makes driving it more difficult (ie easier to
stall due to less momentum in the engine parts)....
Ease of driving is why lots of pedestrian tintops (if that's not an oxymoron) take such a long time to "spool up"- my tintop is a
Micra- in the time it takes to rev I could have done the same twice with the ST1100 engine!!! It's so fun sitting at traffic lights in the BEC
blipping the throttle and watching the tacho wizz all the way round in a blink of an eye....
On a car-enginned-car reducing the flywheel weight through getting it turned down helps to a point. Do it too much, though, and it the engine turns
into an expensive grenade.
The lack of mass throughout a F1 car helps the pickup- not just the engine but everything else that has to spin up. Okay okay when you're just
blipping the throttle with the clutch down the propshaft doesn't move but you can't win a F1 championship without the car moving  ...
[drool] Carbon fibre propshafts.... [/drool]...
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James
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| posted on 28/11/06 at 07:29 PM |
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Agreed, having just a clutch attached to the crank instead of a flywheel certainly helps.
Things like the (now banned IIRC) berylium alloy pistons and the like make a big difference too.
I think the attached file give a good example of what can be done.....
In case you're wondering it's the 2005 Renault v10 'playing' that tune! 
Can you do this with Megasquirt? 
Cheers,
James
[Edited on 28/11/06 by James]
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"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses, behind the lines, in the gym and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights."
- Muhammad Ali
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tks
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| posted on 28/11/06 at 07:39 PM |
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mhhh
Mainly it is due to a very low stroke engine.
The piston speed is then very high.
Revs will be high to.
Torque is low.
F1 engines have low internals combine that with low friction (no cam etc.)
then you get easy reviing
Tks
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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bilbo
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| posted on 28/11/06 at 07:50 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by James
Agreed, having just a clutch attached to the crank instead of a flywheel certainly helps.
Things like the (now banned IIRC) berylium alloy pistons and the like make a big difference too.
I think the attached file give a good example of what can be done.....
In case you're wondering it's the 2005 Renault v10 'playing' that tune!
Can you do this with Megasquirt?
Cheers,
James
[Edited on 28/11/06 by James]
Thanks just Great!
Clearly the Renault F1 team have far too much time on there hands
I also liked flak monkeys video. I've never seen engine revs nearly breaking a camcorder before I love the guy on the right grimacing and
putting his fingers in his ear, knowing what was going to happen next!
[Edited on 28/11/06 by bilbo]
---------------------------------------
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russbost
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| posted on 28/11/06 at 07:50 PM |
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No cam?????
Now that would be interesting, but can't recall the last 2 stroke F1 I saw!
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Wadders
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| posted on 28/11/06 at 07:51 PM |
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Jesus, i think i'd be scared to stand so close to that thing never mind being strapped into it. Big cahoonas, much respect.
Originally posted by flak monkey
If you think F1 engines redline quick you should listen to a top fuel drag car
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-4530549599507663097
(watch it to the end)
[Edited on 28/11/06 by flak monkey]
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bebot
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| posted on 28/11/06 at 08:16 PM |
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There's less moving parts, as the valve's are open pnuematically, there's not a lot to impede the crank rotating.
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Peteff
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| posted on 28/11/06 at 08:23 PM |
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Light weight and high compression
Remember there's a downside to the lightening as well, they have to tick over at 5,000rpm and stall at the drop of a hat. That dragster smokes
nearly as much as my Pinto
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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gazza285
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| posted on 28/11/06 at 08:45 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by bebot
There's less moving parts, as the valve's are open pnuematically, there's not a lot to impede the crank rotating.
Not quite. The valves are still opened by a camshaft and closed using pnuematics instead of steel springs.
DO NOT PUT ON KNOB OR BOLLOCKS!
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Jebus
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| posted on 28/11/06 at 09:05 PM |
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its a similar idea 2 a desmo ducatti engine, they rev up a lot better than a normal v twin could
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Werner Van Loock
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| posted on 28/11/06 at 09:06 PM |
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Don't F1 engines run on different octane fuel then our regular tin tops?
The Top Fuel dragsters run on nitro-methane, almost explosive!
http://www.clubstylus.be
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yorkshire-engines
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| posted on 28/11/06 at 09:57 PM |
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i was lucky enough to have a drive in a top fuel dragster when i was racing in comp altered during the late 70,s (god was it so long ago)
dave lee travis who was a good friend got me a drive in the radio one sponsored top fueller the needle and it was set to run at half power
around 1500 bhp
believe me thats the fastest scariest thing iv ever sat in i s@@t myself and shut the throttle halfway down the strip and still did 187 mph in
it
still shudder to this day thinking about it and there a damn sight more powerfull these days
go to santa pod next year to the nationals and see for yourselfs
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flak monkey
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| posted on 28/11/06 at 10:06 PM |
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The top fuellers are putting out 6000-8000bhp now and run 300mph+ 1/4s. There is no other sound like a top fuel drag car, the only car engine capable
of making you physically shake 300 yards away when they rev it.
I think you might have driven a menthanol drag (look like a top fuel), which put out about 3000-4000bhp. Still bloody quick though (250+ 1/4s)
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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JoelP
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| posted on 28/11/06 at 10:14 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
a menthanol drag
isnt that a type of fag?!
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Stuart Walker
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| posted on 29/11/06 at 10:28 AM |
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I read somewhere F1 fuel has be 99% (or maybe 95% - cant quite remember) the same makeup as road fuel, although octane ratings vary slightly in road
fuel anyway, but I guess that means it can't be much higher octane...
quote:
Originally posted by Werner Van Loock
Don't F1 engines run on different octane fuel then our regular tin tops?
The Top Fuel dragsters run on nitro-methane, almost explosive!
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tks
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| posted on 29/11/06 at 10:45 AM |
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mhhh
you get me thinking but how do they manage the amount op valve lift then??
I´m quet sure F1 engines don´t have a cam shaft atleast not as BHP consuming as a normal one.. in fact with out the springs everything is said.
the also don´t have throttle butterfly the manage valve lift.
Tks
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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jono_misfit
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| posted on 29/11/06 at 12:45 PM |
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Im 100% confident they have camshafts. The valve acutation method is different though.
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