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Conversion costs for E85 Bio fuel.
procomp - 14/8/09 at 03:23 PM

Hi

Over the last few weeks we have received a number of phone calls enquiring about converting 750mc Locost's to run in class B. To save time we have posted a section on our website giving basic information.
HERE is the link to that section.

Cheers Matt

Dangle_kt - 14/8/09 at 08:00 PM

can anyone explain the logic of why yould want to run on biofuel if its more expensive, costs to change to run on it and it has a short shelf life?

Whats the appeal?

speedyxjs - 14/8/09 at 08:51 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Dangle_kt
can anyone explain the logic of why yould want to run on biofuel if its more expensive, costs to change to run on it and it has a short shelf life?

Whats the appeal?


Saving the unsavable planet

TMC Motorsport - 14/8/09 at 09:01 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Dangle_kt
can anyone explain the logic of why yould want to run on biofuel if its more expensive, costs to change to run on it and it has a short shelf life?

Whats the appeal?


Because motorsport is inherently not very environmentally friendly, and with the world as it is there are people who would like to see that situation improved. But, as I may have mentioned once or twice, E85 is still relatively new technology and as such requires development to make it widely acceptable and usable for the everyday motorist. Traditionally motorsport has played a strong role in development and the technology tends to filter down the chain to road vehicles. In this case it may well be coming off a low rung of the motorsport ladder, but all research is to be welcomed in my humble opinion!

Matt, I'm a little confused, is this what you're quoting to make a conversion then? Does it mean the College car is coming out to play in Class B?

nowland7 - 15/8/09 at 06:35 AM

Is it just me or is it blindingly obvious that if someone wanted to convert to bio-ethanol they would surely want to go to the only team which has managed to pull it off and are winning races not one which has tried and failed.

Surely only someone who has done the job properly could know the actual work needed and its cost!

simes43 - 15/8/09 at 09:32 AM

Could someone clarify the safety aspect in terms of
the equipment available to the circuit marshalls.

Does every post have the correct fire fighting units?

Irrelevant details discussing on board extinguishers and FIA spec meetings will not help in the real world

TMC Motorsport - 15/8/09 at 10:00 AM

Simon,
Marshal's posts carry CO2 foam filled extinguishers which will suffocate an E85 fuelled fire. They have no need for other extinguishers.

Matt

jatros - 16/8/09 at 08:42 PM

Is there any news if they have managed to actually get that College car running yet? or is it still a garage project?

TimC - 17/8/09 at 11:15 AM

quote:
Originally posted by nowland7
Is it just me or is it blindingly obvious that if someone wanted to convert to bio-ethanol they would surely want to go to the only team which has managed to pull it off and are winning races not one which has tried and failed.

Surely only someone who has done the job properly could know the actual work needed and its cost!


Well, perhaps yes. But it's more-or-less a parts list. Matt's a registered trader and is therefore entitled to peddle his wares.

Welcome to the forum by the way.

jatros - 17/8/09 at 05:17 PM

If its just a parts list how come the college car hasnt made an appearance? and the Biotech car with the "parts list" is now pushing for the championship?

mlees91 - 17/8/09 at 06:20 PM

the collage car has bin out just with petrol in it

jatros - 17/8/09 at 06:32 PM

so basically Biotech and TMC are the only people to succesfully convert a locost to run on E85, yet procomp who tried and have now failed are converting cars?

TimC - 18/8/09 at 07:07 AM

quote:
Originally posted by jatros
so basically Biotech and TMC are the only people to succesfully convert a locost to run on E85, yet procomp who tried and have now failed are converting cars?


Are you a fellow racer? If this is all that you have to worry about then good luck to you. I was about to say that you are missing the point, but I think that I would be doing you a disservice. I don't think you care what the point is.

mlees91 - 18/8/09 at 07:58 AM

Are you a fellow racer?



he obv is not or he wud have seen the collage car out it is not like it is hard 2 miss and plus the fact that picuters of the car have bin put on locost builder

nowland7 - 18/8/09 at 08:07 AM

quote:
Originally posted by mlees91
Are you a fellow racer?


he obv is not or he wud have seen the collage car out it is not like it is hard 2 miss and plus the fact that picuters of the car have bin put on locost builder


Although not racing i think as co-owner of the Bio-ethanol powered car and someone heavily involved in its rebuild he probably has every right to question anyone else on the subject!

MikeRJ - 18/8/09 at 08:21 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Dangle_kt
can anyone explain the logic of why yould want to run on biofuel if its more expensive, costs to change to run on it and it has a short shelf life?

Whats the appeal?


An octane rating of 100 or more.

jatros - 18/8/09 at 03:49 PM

The point I am raising is how can pro-comp seriously market a conversion kit to bio-ethanol, when they cant actually successfully convert one for themselves?

mlees91 - 18/8/09 at 05:46 PM

i am sory jatros but you deffently have the wrong end of the stick all procomp have done is put the prices of parts and running costs so people can make up there own minds dew to lots of enquires.

jatros - 18/8/09 at 09:17 PM

ok maybe i have, however maybe there would be more chance of people converting to ethanol if the list was entirely accurate...but thats a different matter.

progers - 18/8/09 at 09:26 PM

Fair enough. Rather than taking cheap shots at your competition, how about enlightening us all and posting what you think is the correct kit of parts to make the conversion?

The main purpose of this site is to share knowledge and help each other. Your are welcome to join in!

- Paul

jatros - 18/8/09 at 09:50 PM

One is almost completed and is being verified between engineers and technicians...it will be published by one medium or another once it is definitive. Its currently being researched into how the cost of converting can be reduced as much as possible to make it a more appealing option.

TMC Motorsport - 19/8/09 at 08:41 AM

I think what might be getting to the Coventry lads a little is the persistant negativity towards the existing Bio car from one particular segment of the Locost paddock.
What Matt has posted on his site is true, and does represent a potential cost for converting a car, or indeed building one from scratch, to run on Bio-Ethanol. However, the actual cost varies depending on the spec of the car to be converted, and there are some subtle exaggerations that appear to be there for effect.
For example, do you need a 30% larger fuel tank with a drain tap? I have run with a 16 litre tank in the bio car this year, and although I concede it has been close on occasion to the 3 litre minimum, I certainly have not run out of fuel yet!
We have a 23 litre tank in our petrol car, and I know it is not the only one!
Also, the drain tap seems a little excessive, we have had no problem with simply purging the fuel through using the pump fitted to the car.

There is every chance that a car will already have ethanol compliant fuel lines, and there is an equal chance it may not. There is more equipment that is resistant to ethanol than the oil companies' propaganda would have you believe.

Rolling road sessions are probably the biggest cost, but in my experience they tend to include the cost of new jets, and while refitting the gaskets in the carb is advisable, it is by no means essential. And if you had an engine rebuilt over the winter, wouldnt you get it rolling road tested anyway?

E85 is definitely corrosive, no argument there, but as I keep mentioning, it is new technology! Nobody is expecting it to be available to the masses at the moment, and continued development is necessary. Involving it in as many race cars as possible will only help that development.
Its life span is shorter than that of petrol, but if anybody thinks they get as good performance from super unleaded after leaving it for the couple of weeks between races as they do from new stuff bought from the pumps.... well I've just improved your lap times already!
We are also currently talking to suppliers about smaller quantities, so that fuel is not wasted so often. Again, the more the demand for this goes up, the more progress we will make.

The same logic applies to the cold starting. Yes it is tricky, but I haven't missed a race this season because the car wouldnt start, I have just helped the lads get over their hangovers by requiring a bump-start first thing at a meeting. No major hardship there and Locost prides itself on its camaraderie so no shortage of willing bodies to lend a hand! And again, as the technology improves, so will the ability to get the car started in cold weather!

I seem to repeat myself a lot on this subject, but please remember that there is one sole example of a Bio-Ethanol powered car on the grid.
If there are roughly fifty registered cars this season (top of my head figure) I really dont consider one out of fifty to be a particularly good representation of the performance difference, when there are so many other potential influencing factors.
There were always supposed to be at least two cars running in Class B this season, but for whatever reason that hasnt happened. Again I repeat myself, I very much doubt that it will now, because if that car isn't magically propelled into race winning situations when motivated by Bio-Ethanol, that certain segment of the paddock will have to admit they were wrong about it being an all conquering development, and concede that the driver and setup of car number 8 may just have had a part to play.......

Hopefully at Silverstone we will have more details of what is required, and the cost (inclusive of labour) to convert cars to Bio-Ethanol. If those people who called Procomp would like to come and have a chat and take a look at the options, we will be more than happy to talk you through them. Once finalised, those details will also go up on our website.

Cheers,
Matt

jatros - 19/8/09 at 09:08 AM

Amen!! Thanks Matt

simes43 - 19/8/09 at 05:31 PM

Thanks for clearing the safety aspect up.