dan8400
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| posted on 11/2/10 at 10:17 AM |
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Track Day Rules on Roll Bars
Just recieved my bumf from PPC about a track day (my first one) on 5th March. I'll quote:
"Open top cars will only be permitted when fitted with a full MSA/FIA approved roll safety device, or other road homologated roll over safety
device. Road homologated vehicles which do not have the above by virtue of their manufactured date, but which are still in standard homologated
specification may also participate.
Does my Tiger roll bar suffice? I have added a cross brace and rear strutts because the original was just a bolted on hoop.
Thanks
Dan
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GMPMotorsport
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| posted on 11/2/10 at 10:52 AM |
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From the way I read that if your car has a factory fitted safety device then it's ok. IMHO.
www.gmpdevelopments.co.uk
www.gmpmotorsport.co.uk
ARDS Instructer.
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wilkingj
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| posted on 11/2/10 at 12:03 PM |
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Email PPC and ask. Its their rules.
I would have thought a manufacturer's roll bar would be OK.
Still... best to clarify with PPC. You dont want to pay, get there, then be told you can only watch do you?
1. The point of a journey is not to arrive.
2. Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
Best Regards
Geoff
http://www.v8viento.co.uk
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RAYLEE29
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| posted on 11/2/10 at 12:07 PM |
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definately ask the organisers before you go cause i read that as no unless you have a full cage or bar is approved by homologation. its not is it?
Ray
[Edited on 11/2/10 by RAYLEE29]
[Edited on 11/2/10 by RAYLEE29]
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procomp
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| posted on 11/2/10 at 12:28 PM |
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Hi
Yes definitely check with them directly. But as i have been hinting at for the last year or so. More and more trackday organisers are having to comply
with stricter regulations regarding what safety regulations they have to follow and that includes the safety equipment fitted to the cars running in
the event.
It is always wise to have a roll bar made to FIa/MSA criteria if having one fitted anyhow as the guidelines they follow are all about meeting
standards that have been tried tested and approved to a standard that will work in the event of an accident.
Cheers Matt
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Richard Quinn
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| posted on 11/2/10 at 12:32 PM |
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Worth checking with helmet specs too as I believe some TD organisers are turning more to the MSA for guidance which could rule out a lot of bike
helmets
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dan8400
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| posted on 11/2/10 at 01:05 PM |
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Rang to check and they said as long as it's road legal (ie: mot or sva/iva) it's fine for their track days.
Sorted.
Dan
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pewe
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| posted on 11/2/10 at 01:57 PM |
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Just in case you are looking to make your own roll-bar the tubing used is T45 (45 tonne) or at least that's what the likes of Lotus are
specifying.
Cheers, Pewe
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procomp
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| posted on 11/2/10 at 02:18 PM |
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Hi
Home made and T45 is a very BAD idea. Who's going to do the heat treatment.
In fact when you actualy buy any T45 material roll hoop / chassis try asking first off whether they have done any heat treatment . I doubt it which
makes the fabricated item worthless. This is why people such as Safety devices moved there operation abroad. The cost of the heat treatment are far
cheaper. This also why a saftey devices T45 cage is £1700 and some do a so called T45 for less than a £1000 they are just not bothering to heat treat
them. Mmm
Cheers Matt
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fesycresy
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| posted on 11/2/10 at 03:46 PM |
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About time an organiser chirped up and added this rule.
Some of the 'manufacturers' roll bars I have seen are shocking.
CDS is the way forward for us in my opinion.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The sooner you fall behind, the more time you'll have to catch up.
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TimC
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| posted on 11/2/10 at 04:35 PM |
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Guys, I'm sorry, but why do people bother to chime-in when they apparently have so little knowledge on a subject?
Unless you are familiar with MSA rules, don't comment on your interpretation. Likewise, don't advise on material specifications unless
you understand the reasons for using such a material and any issues that should be considered.
I'm sorry to get my 'hair-off' and I don't mean to direct these comments at people specifically, but these are issues that:
- Could result in someone spending cash unneccesarily / on something that may not be entirely suitable
- have consequences in terms of safety
The great thing about this forum is that there are some very well informed and educated/qualified people who use it. There is no point in you
commenting if you're not sure. Someone will be along shortly who knows the right answer.
Sure, some issues may result in different views being voiced, but those without any real grounding are useless and pointless.
I'll get off my soap-box now but, as you may have noticed, this drives me nuts!
ETA: Link to 'Blue Book' Safety
Section
[Edited on 11/2/10 by TimC]
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General Bilko
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| posted on 11/2/10 at 05:10 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by TimC
Guys, I'm sorry, but why do people bother to chime-in when they apparently have so little knowledge on a subject?
Unless you are familiar with MSA rules, don't comment on your interpretation. Likewise, don't advise on material specifications unless
you understand the reasons for using such a material and any issues that should be considered.
I'm sorry to get my 'hair-off' and I don't mean to direct these comments at people specifically, but these are issues that:
- Could result in someone spending cash unneccesarily / on something that may not be entirely suitable
- have consequences in terms of safety
The great thing about this forum is that there are some very well informed and educated/qualified people who use it. There is no point in you
commenting if you're not sure. Someone will be along shortly who knows the right answer.
Sure, some issues may result in different views being voiced, but those without any real grounding are useless and pointless.
I'll get off my soap-box now but, as you may have noticed, this drives me nuts!
ETA: Link to 'Blue Book' Safety
Section
[Edited on 11/2/10 by TimC]
TimC - Probably best to take a deep breath and count to 10...
If you restrict people to only posting on subjects they are competent on, then it would be a very quiet forum 
People shouldn't see this forum as the last word in expert knowledge on locosts and kit cars, or act solely on any advice contained within. And
if they do and it turns out to be incorrect, well sorry but that's their tough luck....
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TimC
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| posted on 11/2/10 at 05:24 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by General BilkoTimC - Probably best to take a deep breath and count to 10...
If you restrict people to only posting on subjects they are competent on, then it would be a very quiet forum
People shouldn't see this forum as the last word in expert knowledge on locosts and kit cars, or act solely on any advice contained within. And
if they do and it turns out to be incorrect, well sorry but that's their tough luck....
Inevitably, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I view the forum as a resource, as well as a social/fun/leisure thing.
For me, there is a big difference between a post that asks for an opinion (e.g, "best-looking 7", "favourite colour" or
"what wheels",) or highlights a piece of news or tells a joke and one that asks for guidance on a safety issue or a purchasing decision
with reference to some technicality, regulation or engineering consideration.
I agree that 'buyer beware' should always be applied but why increase an OP's risk of c*cking it up just because you feel the need
to brain-dump?
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General Bilko
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| posted on 11/2/10 at 07:14 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by TimC
I agree that 'buyer beware' should always be applied but why increase an OP's risk of c*cking it up just because you feel the need
to brain-dump?
I'd call it "sharing what you know" rather than "brain-dump". And when someone else points out that "what you
know" isn't correct, well then you've learnt something new, which is probably what this forum is all about.... 
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RK
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| posted on 12/2/10 at 12:33 AM |
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This is what I would ask the track day organisers:
1. Is Tiger a homologated road car?
This is what I would ask myself:
2. If it is, is their roll bar any good?
I had a similar question regarding the helmet required in my area for track days/autocrossing/ice racing/snowcrossing. I am still not sure, but I have
learnt the paint jobs are better on the bike helmets.
[Edited on 12/2/10 by RK - the expert in uselessness and pointlessness]
[Edited on 12/2/10 by RK]
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TimC
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| posted on 12/2/10 at 02:51 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by General Bilko
I'd call it "sharing what you know" rather than "brain-dump". And when someone else points out that "what you
know" isn't correct, well then you've learnt something new, which is probably what this forum is all about....
While I accept that it is perfectly reasonable that we should hold different views on epistemology, I still have a big problem with your argument
above.
If I may paraphrase the point that I think you are making:
"Despite the fact that I know very little about a topic, it is okay for me to respond to a question and therefore potentially inadvertently
hinder the original poster because if I'm wrong, I will be corrected and learn something."
Does it not strike you that the above is a very selfish attitude to take? In a case where a post is a request for information, the primary recipient
of benefit should surely be the original poster.
Again, I think its useful to think about different posts in different ways: When a joke is posted, all readers are likely to benefit; when a debate
(perhaps about car colour) takes place, all contributors potentially benefit; when a question is asked, others may benefit as well but the person
asking the question should get priority and should certainly not be needlessly hindered.
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General Bilko
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| posted on 12/2/10 at 08:21 PM |
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TimC,
I understand your position is you accept the principle of caveat emptor, so if you foolishly believe my assertion that the best brake pads to fit are
Tesco Yellow Stuff (from the deli counter) then that's your hard luck. But you assert that I'm selfish to advise you to fit Tesco Yellow
Stuff if I don't know much about brake systems.
If you had said that it's wrong for people to wilfully and mischievously advise people to use Tesco Yellow Stuff in the full knowledge
it's a very poor choice for brake pads then I would agree with you. But I don't think there are many like that on this forum, and I
don't believe that is your point. You suggest it's selfish to post on a subject where you have little knowledge. But this surely is an
"unknown unknown" or "I don't know I don't know". And how much do I need to know, and how will you measure that,
before I can post on the subject of brakes?
Going back to one of the posts above where someone suggested using T45 for home built roll cages and this was quickly rebuffed, how would that person
know their understanding of roll cage metallurgy was below some, unstated and unquantified, level of competence? They may have made one in that
material themselves, completely unaware of the need to heat treat. Surely they deserve, as much as the OP, to be made aware of that fact?
The other reason I believe your position is incorrect is the assumption that issues such as "best colour" or "nice wheels" are
subjective and there is no one right answer, whereas a technical, regulatory or engineering issue does have a single unambiguous answer and
isn't subject to opinion. Clearly that's not the case, and I'm sure you can think of many examples where engineers and scientists
haven't agreed on a topic.
So I fear your plea will go unheeded, not only because it's impossible to separate an opinion from a fact in most cases, but also, and probably
most pertinently, I suspect no-one will pay a blind bit of attention to what you've asked them to not do....
GB
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pewe
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| posted on 15/2/10 at 12:26 PM |
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My suggestion, note "suggestion", to use T45 was not based on some random or arbitrary notion but after discussion with a specialist tube
manufacturer of long standing and great experience.
This company supplies tubing and associated pipe products for aerospace at one end of the scale and roll-cages at the other. Their take on heat
treatment is that it isn't required for the thin wall tubing being used for motorsport applications.
Whilst not personally qualified to verify that assertion, based on their experience I'm willing to accept it for my purposes - the rest can make
their own decisions.
Cheers, Pewe
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MikeR
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| posted on 15/2/10 at 12:38 PM |
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To comment on both conversations,
If i'm posting something i'm not qualified / expert / experienced in i hope i tend to put a "i think" or a "i
believe" or a "I've read on here" so people know how much weight to put on my comment. I like that approach as it means people
know i'm not an expert & if i post on something i'm wrong i get to see pretty quickly without hopefully causing or taking offence.
As for the t45 - is the roll cage stuff really thin wall? Was the bloke referring to the chassis? I would have thought (not qualified, random guess)
the roll bar would still be far thicker than 1.0 to 1.5mm (what i think is thin wall) and rather scared having something that thin protecting my
head.
edit - small typo
[Edited on 15/2/10 by MikeR]
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procomp
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| posted on 15/2/10 at 03:08 PM |
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Hi
Well that tube supplier should take a closer look at FIA/MSA regulations for a start. And then perhaps take a look at the ACTUAL real world evidence.
I seem to recall certain so called dogs nutsack company making chassis from T45 material without heat treatment and what was the result The customer
where left having to weld the chassis after virtually every event from where they had cracked around the welds.
But Hey every one can make there own decisions. Just be nice if they actualy followed the regulations that they where supposed to be following !!.
Cheers Matt
Just about giving up on a forum full of BS.
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 15/2/10 at 04:33 PM |
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Matt's right about the T45 tube being cantankerous stuff to use. Dangerous in the wrong hands.
T45 is a dumbed down/poor mans 4130, and needs to be treated as such.
There are a few different specs floating around regarding T45. The essence is that it is reduced carbon/chrome version of 4130, but has added
manganese. The problem is that the carbon and chrome don't like to be heated and quick cooled, but need heat treatment after welding.
The material work hardens, which is why it WILL crack with time, if not properly post treated, and even then it will only have an increased life, but
not by a lot.
The interesting thing is that T45 appears to now be outlawed in racecars in the USA along with difficulties in using 4130. This has come about because
of people using these materials without the proper knowledge as how they must be treated.
There is some DOM tubes about that are very good(and even specced in CAMS rules!!), but are not legal for roll cages here. These don't have
chrome or molybdenum, but utilise manganese for toughness.
The only real alternative to cds, is cds! If you read the Blue Book, then no advantage is to be had by using expensive high spec metals, except by
having smaller sections, which need (expensive) individual approvals when used in cages designed as such.
Cheers,
Nev.
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