AdrianH
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 06:23 PM |
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Are there any MSA Technical guru's or scrutineers on here?
If so I would really appreciate being able to pick your brains whilst I fathom some points from the Blue book.
A few emails to MSA Technical over the past few months have not been answered.
I will do the questions via U2U if you wish.
Cheers
Adrian
Why do I have to make the tools to finish the job? More time then money.
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loggyboy
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 06:57 PM |
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Post the queries here, allthough youl get some 'i think's there are a few racers that could give you some 'i know's too.
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GMPMotorsport
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 07:19 PM |
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Yes post them on here so we can all have a look and give you our humble opinions.
www.gmpdevelopments.co.uk
www.gmpmotorsport.co.uk
ARDS Instructer.
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AdrianH
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 08:15 PM |
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OK this is almost the same as the email sent to technical at the MSA.
The numbers are from the new 2011 Blue book
5.16.7. Exhaust catalytic converters must be fitted to all
petrol engined production based saloon, touring and
sports cars, including specialist production and kit
cars, manufactured after 31/12/99. They may be
specified for certain other formulae. Competitors are
reminded of their obligation to maintain such
equipment on a vehicle used on the highway where
government legislation requires it.
My question
I have a home made, i.e self build car or as some call them kit car in the
same style as a two seat open top car.
It was completed and made road legal the end of November 2009, passing the
Individual vehicle Approval (IVA). The car was based on 1991 engine and
running gear, (Ford Sierra) and as such has a normally aspirated engine and is
tested to emissions as per a car of 1991. It was given a 1991 year
registration although completed in 2009 as the V5C states "REBUILT - assembled
from parts some of which were not new."
Am I correct in assuming the car would not meet 5.16.7 as it is not fitted
with a Catalytic Converter, or is it as one has suggested to me a 1991 vehicle
that has been rebuilt and therefore before the specified date?
That is one question I warn you now I do have quite a few.
Adrian
Note my car will never be good at any serious level, but the regs seem to stop me trying things like hill climb and sprint,
For the likes of Hill climb, and sprints what class of car would mine be based on?
[Edited on 3-12-10 by AdrianH]
Why do I have to make the tools to finish the job? More time then money.
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norfolkluego
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 08:39 PM |
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First, is it going to be road legal with a 91 plate, if so it would go in class A5 or A6 (depending on engine size) with no cat as mine is.
If it's not road legal I suspect you'll have to argue the toss with a scrutineer about what the V5 is telling him on year of manufacture,
presumably in class B 7/8/9, think you'd be OK though.
Edit - those are the classes we use down here, I believe it's different oop north.
[Edited on 3/12/10 by norfolkluego]
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locobladeracer
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 08:40 PM |
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As the car has a 1991 reg you wil not have a problem at all.
hope this helps
matt
[Edited on 3/12/10 by locobladeracer]
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AdrianH
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 08:50 PM |
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Thanks
The car is road legal, V5C Taxed and insured etc.
The registration document does say 1st registered in November 2009. that seemed to be the sticking point, and was what I wanted to get back via email
from the MSA so that I could take such a response along with me in case of an issue. The car is 1800 cc.
I am trying to find the section of the book that says what an A5 or A6 is, can you point me in the area?
Adrian
Why do I have to make the tools to finish the job? More time then money.
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Fozzie
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 08:58 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by locobladeracer
As the car has a 1991 reg you wil not have a problem at all.
hope this helps
matt
[Edited on 3/12/10 by locobladeracer]
Yep .... that is correct ....
Fozzie 
Adrian, just seen your reply .... registration year isn't the same
as 'manufacture' year...as yours was 91 as per your
age related plate, then that is the year (1991) yours was
first deemed to be...
Edited to add ....I moved your thread to 'Race Issues' as you would get more replies here, and the 'racers' tend to frequent
this section who are more 'Blue Book' savvy than the ordinary builder....
[Edited on 3-12-10 by Fozzie]
'Racing is Life!...anything before or after is just waiting'....Steve McQueen
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norfolkluego
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 09:01 PM |
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Blue Book, page 327 onwards, do you have an age related plate, if so you'll have no problems
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AdrianH
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 09:26 PM |
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Thanks for moving it Fozzie, I thought that section was 750 club issues but it does make sense.
Now reading 327 onwards. Thanks all for help norfolkluego and matt
Adrian
Why do I have to make the tools to finish the job? More time then money.
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Fozzie
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 09:34 PM |
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No problem Adrian
We have two 'Racing' sections within the forum.
The section that this one is in, 'Race Issues', is within the construction section,
and the other which is more '750mc' specific is in the completed cars section.
As the Bible (aka The Blue Book) is commonly referred to during the construction
stage, more answers to your questions are more likely here.....so as the others have said...
ask away ..... your first question has been answered .... so fire away with the rest! 
Fozzie
'Racing is Life!...anything before or after is just waiting'....Steve McQueen
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AdrianH
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 09:43 PM |
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Still printing sections of the book now frantically trying to fathom how to work out what class my car is in so will be back soon. I find reading the
bible without know what class applies horrendous. for
You get to stages that say you can not have sequential gearboxes and others that say 4 speed only and what is a sports libre or a supresports car, I
hope mine is not super sports car as it could only have 4 forward gears!
Adrian
Ok is definatly not Rodagoing searies Production Car or Roadgoing series specialist production car.
Neither Modified limited production car or modified series production car.
Certainly hope it is not a Hill climb supersports car!
As racing cars seems to suggest single seater I can only assume it is Sports Libre car for my Haynes Roadster?
[Edited on 3-12-10 by AdrianH]
Why do I have to make the tools to finish the job? More time then money.
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Fozzie
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 09:49 PM |
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Have you got a race series in mind?
Each club/race series have their own rules and technical regs. of what is allowed
or not as the case may be ...
'Racing is Life!...anything before or after is just waiting'....Steve McQueen
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AdrianH
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 09:58 PM |
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Sorry Fozzie was editing my post, my fault I should always post response.
I am looking to try Sprint as I believe Liverpool club do that at Aintree and that is the closest, also fancy some of the simpler Hill climbs.
I know I have to modify the car to suit either of the classes, simple things like completely seal up the bulkhead, have a 1 litre catch tank, cross
brace the roll bar (New roll bar for that). and possibly a couple of extra sections in the tunnel to catch the prop. But what confuses me is things
like section J 5.13.2 under fuel systems.
5.13.2 They may only be joined by screwed sealing joints or vehicle manufacturers approved joints. But does that apply only to fuel lines passing
through the driver passenger compartment as in 5.13.1 or to any joint in the system in which case the tank would have to be redone with screwed
connections?
Adrian
[Edited on 3-12-10 by AdrianH]
Why do I have to make the tools to finish the job? More time then money.
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Fozzie
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 10:13 PM |
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I know that we have a couple of peeps that do hill climbs
on the forum .... I will have to go and trawl my memory
banks to remember their site names.... I am pretty sure
they do the climbs in their sevens ....
I am also pretty sure that there are some 'sprinters' on here too
but not 100% definite ......
Might be worth doing a 'Calling all Hill Climbers and Sprinters.... help needed' thread
and doing a link in to this one ......?
'Racing is Life!...anything before or after is just waiting'....Steve McQueen
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AdrianH
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 10:32 PM |
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Thanks again Fozzie. I have one last question for you tonight! I believe I will need a MSA competition license for either Hill climb or Sprint, and
then have to complete an approved course at a school registered with the Association of Racing Drivers’ School (ARDS).
Do you possibly have an idea of the costs for this please?
Still printing the book and all the notes I can find, hate reading from screen.
Cheers
Adrian
Why do I have to make the tools to finish the job? More time then money.
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JimSpencer
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 10:40 PM |
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Hi
I think we've discussed this before - didn't you come along to Aintree just as I was having a stressfull moment after a bolt snapped?
The MSA blue book defines Catagories - not Classes the two are different, the latter is defined by the club and championship organisers in your area,
as you're in the North West that's dead easy - so more of that later.
Age and Cats
If the car is a 1991 plate, it's 1991 - YOU declare it's age on the entry form - the 'rebuilt in 2009' or indeed it's
date of registration is totally irrelevant, it's when it was first Built - you have that as 1991 as that's it's registered year..
It's the Manufactured date that defines if it needs a Cat, not it's date of registration (the MSA being quite used to cars being first
built as track only and then later road registered) so no worries there.
The car will fit into:-
Road Going Specialist Production over 1700cc (normally numbered class 2B, but depends on the championship organiser) if you enter it as a
"Locost."
The only fly in the ointment is that it will need a windscreen (A Requirement for the North West Champs that run at Aintree, not countrywide.)
If you don't want to fit a screen you'll get put into Modified Production, which means you can run slicks but can also entail better
safety kit, plus you'll get mullered as there's some very very quick kit in there - so Fit a Screen..
You don't need a Race Licence, you need a 'Non Race National B' that just costs a few quid (about £50 i think) no need to do a ARDS
course - just download the MSA form and fill it in - or download the form a nip along to the next Liverpool Motor Club evening and the lads there will
go through it with you, especially as you'll need to join a (that one's best) club anyway
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JimSpencer
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 10:46 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by AdrianH
I am looking to try Sprint as I believe Liverpool club do that at Aintree and that is the closest, also fancy some of the simpler Hill climbs.
I know I have to modify the car to suit either of the classes, simple things like completely seal up the bulkhead, have a 1 litre catch tank, cross
brace the roll bar (New roll bar for that). and possibly a couple of extra sections in the tunnel to catch the prop. But what confuses me is things
like section J 5.13.2 under fuel systems.
5.13.2 They may only be joined by screwed sealing joints or vehicle manufacturers approved joints. But does that apply only to fuel lines passing
through the driver passenger compartment as in 5.13.1 or to any joint in the system in which case the tank would have to be redone with screwed
connections?
Adrian
[Edited on 3-12-10 by AdrianH]
Ok a few more.
Yup Bulkhead must be totally sealed - silicone and rubber grommets are Ok though.
1 Litre catch tank on any breather, can route all to the one tank.
Yup prop tunnel rings a good plan - though never ever seen them checked.
That reg is for fuel lines inside the driver / passenger compartment - so unless you have any like that (which wouldn't be a good idea) not an
issue - just use good hose and good clips.
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AdrianH
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 10:49 PM |
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Hi Jim;
Yes we did speak very briefly, as you mentioned you had a bit of stress going on so I was not going to stay and pester you. I did speak with some of
the club officials and was pointed towards sending an email to the MSA technical, I did, and got no response. I sent another email a couple of days
ago and still no response so decided to try here.
I am in the local Accrington Motor sports club, but the main stay of the club is Autosolo/auto-testing and by the sounds of it Rallying, but as the
club does not hold social meetings chances to get down are slim. So asking these questions happens when they are trying to organise/run events.
I have got to ask how did you do, did you get the car back on the track OK?
Adrian
Has the windscreen requirement gone now for open cars, that was required when I asked?
[Edited on 3-12-10 by AdrianH]
[Edited on 3-12-10 by AdrianH]
Why do I have to make the tools to finish the job? More time then money.
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JimSpencer
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 10:52 PM |
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Hi
Reading your first post I thought your's was a total one off, but re-reading it it's a Haynes Roadster yes?
If so Just put 'Haynes Roadster' on the entry form as vehicle make and model for the Specialist Production Class and it'll be fine.
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AdrianH
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 11:03 PM |
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I have had more feedback here then I expected and I thank you all.
Thanks for the fuel answer Jim, that helps.
I need to get down and attend a club meeting, I would say some time in February, will look for a club calender.
Cheers
Adrian
Why do I have to make the tools to finish the job? More time then money.
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JimSpencer
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 11:07 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by AdrianH
Hi Jim;
Yes we did speak very briefly, as you mentioned you had a bit of stress going on so I was not going to stay and pester you. I did speak with some of
the club officials and was pointed towards sending an email to the MSA technical, I did, and got no response. I sent another email a couple of days
ago and still no response so decided to try here.
I am in the local Accrington Motor sports club, but the main stay of the club is Autosolo/auto-testing and by the sounds of it Rallying, but as the
club does not hold social meetings chances to get down are slim. So asking these questions happens when they are trying to organise/run events.
I have got to ask how did you do, did you get the car back on the track OK?
Adrian
Has the windscreen requirement gone now for open cars, that was required when I asked?
Hi
Forget MSA technical they'll at best forward it back to the Speed event committee, so I wouldn't hold your breath..
By far the best thing to do is just do the basics bits and pieces outlined above, enter your car in the Roadgoing Specialist Production class and any
minor items will sort themselves out over the first couple of events - as long as you have the basic safety bits done you'll definatly get to
run - I've never ever seen anybody turned away who'd got that done.
And yup got the car back on the track for the next run, borrowed a bolt off the Caterham lads, the anti roll bar was a touch tweaked so corner weights
out a bit, but had a competitive day anyway!
No the Windscreen requirement is still there I'm afraid, but trust me it'll be a simplier mod to do that than it would be to meet Mod Prod
specs
However if it's a major problem go to Loton Park near Shrewsbury and enter one of their Hillclimbs as they don't insist for their club
champs.
You'll find there are plenty of willing volunteers to help people through their first event, so if you let me know which one you're doing
if I'm there I'll gladly take you through the entry process and the procedure on the day - if I'm not i'll know somebody who
is who'll do the same.
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Fozzie
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| posted on 3/12/10 at 11:15 PM |
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Just to agree with Jim here regarding Race Licence .....
No ARDS needed .....Non Race National B ......for Sprints and Hill Climbs ....
Just to add......I have never been to any type of event where there wasn't
loads of help and advice offered to 'newbies' ....Jim has given excellent advice there ....
Fozzie
'Racing is Life!...anything before or after is just waiting'....Steve McQueen
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norfolkluego
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| posted on 4/12/10 at 12:02 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by AdrianH
Thanks again Fozzie. I have one last question for you tonight! I believe I will need a MSA competition license for either Hill climb or Sprint, and
then have to complete an approved course at a school registered with the Association of Racing Drivers’ School (ARDS).
Do you possibly have an idea of the costs for this please?
Still printing the book and all the notes I can find, hate reading from screen.
Cheers
Adrian
For sprints and hillclimbs you won't need an ARDS test to get your non race national B licence and that's what you need. If you have no
medical 'issues' you can do it online with a medical self declaration and your doctors details (you'll also need a jpeg type facial
photograph).
As said sprinting is the world's friendliest competetive sport, you'll get lots of help and advice. As for the scrutineers they're
there to help you compete safely not turn you away if at all possible, they will if it's a problem that can't be fixed but to start with
they'll tell you what to do to get it legal, they like their racing as much as anyone else they don't want to turn people away (even if
sometimes they have to)
[Edited on 4/12/10 by norfolkluego]
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