stevetzoid
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| posted on 12/1/08 at 01:50 AM |
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Hi Guys I seem to remember being t- boned at Silverstone by someone who shall remain anonymous but my laptimes in dry practise were up with the lap
record for locost, this person had a bad restart according to others and they said the red mist desended, he was a so called " Front
Runner" That took me clean out. My thoughts no body does things deliberately, Declan seems to avoid the problems and he has won the
championship 2 years running I beleive.
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D Beddows
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| posted on 12/1/08 at 03:29 AM |
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lol
wouldn't be anyone here surely 
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procomp
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| posted on 12/1/08 at 02:18 PM |
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Hi well except for the one at combe with Samir i and others cant think of any other major problems that have occurred between front and back runners
over the last 3-4 years.
So it would seem that there is no real problem to be dealt with. The buddy system would be a good idea but i think trying to make it compulsory is
also a bit pointless as someone is either willing to help or is not. But plenty of drivers whether it be front - mid - back of the field are always
ready to give advice and help regardless.
Maybe it needs driving standard through the whole field looking at as there have been more accidents due to people not knowing when to concede a
corner and ending up with two cars off rather than conceding that they have been beat at that corner and being able to have a go back at the next. (
RED MIST) And not driving with there head would then seem to be the biggest cause of accidents.
However i think that it should be pointed out that there are not that many accident occurring in the locost championship. Even if this thread dose
seem to make it look like it is a problem. It is one of the UK'S biggest and closest championships so some accident are always going to happen.
One other way that the chances of front runners lapping the back markers so quickly would be if the number of entrants was to increase by another 5-7
it would mean that almost all rounds would be a heat and final. This will obviously mean that the drivers in each race will be of a closer pace to
each other. But as I've said i don't see where the problem is and certainly do not think that a 10% rule will do anything to help at
all.
Well i cant wait for the season to start. And as i will be racing in the locost championship this year i am certinally looking forward to some good
close racing.
Cheers Matt
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pumpers
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| posted on 12/1/08 at 02:26 PM |
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Nice to hear you'll be racing Matt, that puts me back another place !!!!
Craig
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pointy
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| posted on 12/1/08 at 05:41 PM |
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Newbies
I am the wife of a Novice Locost Driver, we have always loved Motor Racing and until recently could only afford to watch. Now with two full time
jobs, a lot of family sacrifices and some innovative budgeting my husband has managed to compete in a couple of races.
No he's never going to be the next Lewis Hamilton but he is out there and improving every time. We have booked as many track days as we can
afford over the winter so that he can practice and indeed I have had the pleasure of having a drive myself. I would love to have a go at racing
myself BUT having read this thread and heard some of the comments from the front runners feel that maybe me being such a liability with all the
responsibility of not taking them off would seriously diminish my enjoyment. Whats the point in even trying if I'm going to be treated with so
much disdain.
We have always received nothing but help and encouragement from the middle and back runners but have never so much as had a by your leave from many
(although not all) the so called front runners. I am assuming from this that the front runners came straight in as exactly that (or else
they've forgotten what its like).
We have gained some fantastic friends and acquaintances at the meetings we have attended and although winning would be fantastic (actually achieving
something under 25th would be great!) we are realistic that with our budget and lack of expertise this is unlikely to happen in the near future, but
we still enjoy all the aspects of racing PLEASE don't spoil it by trying to get us stopped before we even start. The heats are usually enough
to get rid of us anyway!
Anyway if you're so good a driving I'm sure once you see a novice sticker you are aware that the driver of the car is likely to be unsure
and will take the necessary care to get round them safely!
I am booked onto a NOVICE trackday at Snetterton and will enjoy my day, who knows I might even have a hidden talent!!!!
Elaine
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simes43
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| posted on 12/1/08 at 09:37 PM |
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OK. One more time for the record, the 10% rule is not a Simon Wood, 750mc or an individual circuit rule. It is an MSA blue book statement that the
Clerk of the Course can , if he wishes, not allow a driver to participate in an event due to their apparent lack of speed and potentially their
current level competence at controlling a race car. Its not a new rule, its been around for years.
The rule is not designed to cripple a novices ambitions, , just set a very basic level of ability, a discretionary one at that. No one gives you the
keys to a helicopter and says “ have a go, see how you get on”. I spend my own spare time teaching young race drivers in how to approach racing and to
diminish the massive gap between completing the ARDS test and actually racing for real. I also spend time in the paddock helping those that ask
,improve their lap time, improve their game. I never hold back information or refuse to offer experience to those who want to go faster.
Misguidedly a number believe that the reason I stared this “debate” was to banish novices from the grid so that my race would not be potentially
spoiled by the hindrance of a slower car ruining my progress. Sorry, a really superficial argument, I only have contempt for.
The reason I posted was because I was asked to. As has been pointed out, racing is dangerous and for those who have actually competed, quite often
bloody frightening . The reason I started this was because of safety, not trophies, not points.
When and only when you are competing at a meeting and someone is killed do you really understand how bloody terrible a day at the races can be.
Those that have, know what I mean, those that don’t, well, you have made yourself known.
Samir was bloody lucky at Combe last year, bloody lucky.
[Edited on 13/1/08 by simes43]
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simes43
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| posted on 13/1/08 at 01:37 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by stevetzoid
Hi Guys I seem to remember being t- boned at Silverstone by someone who shall remain anonymous but my laptimes in dry practise were up with the lap
record for locost, this person had a bad restart according to others and they said the red mist desended, he was a so called " Front
Runner" That took me clean out. My thoughts no body does things deliberately, Declan seems to avoid the problems and he has won the
championship 2 years running I beleive.
What a torrid time you must have had a Silverstone. Firstly the accident caused by Tony Jones driving across the front of my car which resulted in
contact between our selves and then you being T boned by someone else. Two seperate accidents, tough day.
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Richd
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| posted on 13/1/08 at 11:04 AM |
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If you want to look at driving standards you need to look right the way up the grid. During races last year I have twice been unceremoniously shoved
out of the way during qualifying by "front runners" in places which are accepted as not overtaking opportunities.
The ten percent rule, as you say, is already there if it becomes a problem. but lets be fair it does only look at one side of the problem.
Elaine, I totally agree, It places another hurdle in our way to becoming racers.
Most of the legislation is in place. I suggest use the rules & enforce them.
Cheers
Rich
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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procomp
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| posted on 13/1/08 at 11:11 AM |
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Hi just out of interest who has asked you to raise this question of the 10%. As you say you where asked to in the above post.
And is this forum the best place for it to be raised.
Cheers Matt
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simes43
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| posted on 13/1/08 at 11:24 AM |
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Richd, you are right, driving standards do need to be looked at up and down the field. And they are.
The 2008 regs have a number of class only rules that have been introduced to punish poor driving.
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pointy
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| posted on 13/1/08 at 11:48 AM |
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Dear Simes43,
Thank you for your reply - I appreciate being allowed to make my point even though I do not race.
I would however point out we all want racing to be as safe as possible and it is not only those that actually compete that understand how terrible a
day at the races can be - us bystanders often feel sick to their stomachs watching a loved one race - I certainly don't take accidents lightly
just because I don't compete.
I was not pointing the finger with regard to the amount of help received but can only speak from experience. Do you realise how hard it is to ask for
help from a front runner when you are only just starting out and know so very little. This is why the Buddy Scheme would be a fantastic way
forward....there would be no such thing as a silly question.
I also know you would not be given the keys to a helicopter and told to get on with it, of course you would have a co pilot ..so why can't the
Buddy Scheme incorporate somthing like this. If track days were available with this Buddy Scheme (and were no more expensive than ordinary ones)
I'm sure many Newbies would gladly sign up for them to gain the necessary "solo" time to improve to an appropriate standard to
enable safer races. Also the signatures on a Novices' licence are somewhat similar to gaining "air time" as they are being assessed
throughout their first races to make sure of their competence and cannot remove the warning of their lack of experience until they have proved their
competency.
Thank you for kind invite to ask for info. I look forward to the new season and getting the help hubby needs to improve so he doesn't cause the
problems everyone is discussing.
Elaine
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viparacing
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| posted on 15/1/08 at 11:23 AM |
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An entry level formula should be encouraging novices not putting extra hurdles in their way.
At my first ever race (Mallory 2006 in the snow) I was worried about what I should do if I saw the front runners looming in my mirrors. I've
found Locost a very friendly formula from the start and asked a few people about it (that and about a million other questions! - all of which people
were really helpful with.)
The advice I got was to stick to the racing line. If your being lapped its fair to say there is a big difference between your speed and that of the
front runners and if you stay on line your driving is predictable and they can easily get past. With the front runners usually in a pack it would be
dangerous to swerve off line as you'd likely still end up in front of someone.
This made my first race a lot more comfortable. I can't remember if i was lapped (probably) but I know staying on the drying line was always
going to be safer than a novice diving out of the way on to a snowy bit. It also meant I knew what was expected of me.
If this is the general consensus (those being lapped stay on racing line) could it be included in the first time drivers briefings?
Some of the accidents where back makers have swerved to me sound like some one who was desperate to get out of the way and not cause trouble but with
4/5 cars hurtling up behind them got it wrong.
Vicky
locost #71
www.viparacing.com
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simes43
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| posted on 15/1/08 at 03:12 PM |
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Hi Vicky
I will be flamed for this, but I think many issues are caused by the "staying on the racing line when cars are passing" advice.
I would advocate instead that everyone drives in one manner up and down the field.
The most common, correct and by far the safest way of being passed during practice and on being lapped in a race is to indicate to the car behind, by
using either indicators or pointing, in the direction that you wish them to pass you.
As a good bit of racing etiquette , drivers should actually move off line to ease the passing process, not block the car in front. This removes the
constant issues of people trying to outbrake others during practice.
The above process creates a level of communication and reduces the level of assumptions that are going on in both cars.
Before the PC squad jumps here, there are far more benefits to be learnt from following a car thats faster than getting in its way.
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Rob Palin
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| posted on 15/1/08 at 06:06 PM |
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Not flaming, but i would definitely disagree with you there, even though i do use the method you recommend myself. Bear with me a minute and
i'll explain the apparent hypocrisy.
Aside from all the off-track issues we're discussing in the other thread, one of the steepest learning curves for me when i first started was
learning how to drive 'off-line'. It was difficult enough to learn the proper racing lines / braking points etc, but trying to do this
while 30-odd other people were squabbling over the same piece of tarmac as me was much harder.
With experience it's easier to judge an off-line braking point or to adjust to a different line which causes less disruption to a passing car
(at least whilst maintaining any sort of momentum), but this is quite difficult when you're just starting out. I would therefore think the
advice to "carry on doing what you're doing and let the faster car sort itself out" is appropriate for novices, as they've
often got enough on their plate as it is.
It is better to get some sort of indication that they've seen you coming, sure, but in the abscence of that at least you know with reasonable
confidence what they're going to do: when they'll brake, what trajectory they'll take through a corner and thus you can position
yourself accordingly.
There, not that hypocritical, really. :s
<edit> There was a thread on this on Ten Tenths a while back. All about the Blue Book's rules on blue flags and whether it was strictly
correct that a backmarker *has* to deviate from their line/speed to give way to a faster car. According to the literal wording of the rule, actual
racing itself is illegal!
[Edited on 15/1/08 by Rob Palin]
[Edited on 15/1/08 by Rob Palin]
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andrews_45
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| posted on 15/1/08 at 07:50 PM |
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The way I read it, I am a novice, if I am in a position where I am about to be lapped I will move over and allow the faster cars past as soon as it is
safe to do so. What would the front runners prefer us to do? Perhaps a raise of our arm to say we've seen em and will move over to let em
pass?
[Edited on 15/1/08 by andrews_45]
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simes43
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| posted on 15/1/08 at 08:17 PM |
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Hi Rob,
I understand your point about going off line can sometimes be tricky, it is.
However, although, but, actually if the driver in front is alert and watching what is going on behind them then they should be able to judge their
speed (up and down)and get passed on the straight.
If the whole grid ( a high proportion already do) and every other race series in the country use the recognised practice then the safest option is for
drivers to follow it from the beginning and not some well intended "advice".
Si
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Rob Palin
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| posted on 15/1/08 at 09:46 PM |
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I agree that the safest place for it all to take place is on the straights - which is why track day organisers enforce a rule to that effect to cater
for those who may have even less track experience than a novice racer.
If they can blend out of the throttle *a little* on the straight then fine, but i still wouldn't expect them to move out of the way.
Misunderstandings happen too easily that way, and it is most probably experience of this which has led to the advice being given to novices in the
first place. If they start moving or indicating then it would easily get messy when a pack of squabbling lead cars is trying to get past. If they
stay on line but just feather the throttle slightly then everyone knows exactly where they will be.
This is all well and good, but there will definitely be times during races when lapping takes place through corners out of competitive necessity, and
the other stuff becomes relevent again. If they stay on line then you know where they'll be. If they deviate from that then there's no
way to know for sure what level of compromise they're going to make to their line in order to let you through.
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simes43
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| posted on 15/1/08 at 10:38 PM |
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In reality, experienced drivers will on most occasions judge how to get round a lapped or slower qualifying car and leave a bit of extra space during
a passing move.
Thats how it usually works.
However, it is not the job of the faster car to find a way round, bah humbug, but its not. Ignoring what is going on around you and not knowing what
your responsibilities are, is just wrong and dangerous.
There is a very clear statement in the Blue Book about what a slower car should do. The "advice" does not appear and therefore should not
be listened to, however well meaning.
By advocating the "advice" over the correct course of action, an actual collision course has been created here by the introduction of
contradictory advice.
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Rob Palin
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| posted on 16/1/08 at 07:13 AM |
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That's where we disagree then. The wording in the Blue Book is not clear, which was what prompted the thread on Ten Tenths that i mentioned
earlier. It says a driver should "give way" to a car which is "temporarily or consistently faster". It does not say in any
way how a driver should go about actually 'giving way'.
Elsewhere in the Blue Book it says that it is the responsibility of an overtaking driver to complete the manoeuver safely.
The consensus in that thread (mainly marshalls & drivers contributing) was that the slower driver shouldn't do anything specifically to
impede the progress of the faster driver, but that's about it.
The way the Blue Book rule is written effectively outlaws competitive racing, as well as not being clear on the actual action to be taken for lapped
cars etc.
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simes43
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| posted on 16/1/08 at 11:02 AM |
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Reading between the lines a bit, the outcome of all of this is that both drivers must share responsibility and not leave it up to the other.
The signalling part is a good habit to learn and will help drivers as they progress up the grid and beyond. How else do you get a tow down the Rivett!
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