r1_pete
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| posted on 9/2/10 at 07:19 PM |
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Any electricians on here for a bit of advice.
The kitchen fitters started fitting our new kitchen today, I have had all the electrical prep work done, but I'm at work while they are here,
just swmbo in.
The fitters took out the old kitchen, but whilst extending a water pipe hole they nicked an electric cable in the wall.
Their solution was to cut out the damaged bit of cable, and from what my wife has said, crimp a new bit in with what look like those cheapo pre
insulated car crimps, finished off with a wrap of tape.
Surely this can't meet part p regs or whatever is relavent? can anyone confirm??
Add to that the poxy plastic push fits they've used on copper, they can get ready for an early phone call from a pissed off customer.
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madrallysport
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| posted on 9/2/10 at 07:27 PM |
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Wrong wrong wrong, the cable should be replaced or a proper joint made with all cores of the cable not just the damaged one, the connection they have
made for the repair will give you problems in the future.
UNDERSTEER is when you hit the wall with the front of the car.
OVERSTEER is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.
HORSEPOWER is how fast you hit the wall.
TORQUE is how far you take the wall with you.
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Confused but excited.
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| posted on 9/2/10 at 07:29 PM |
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Relevant standard would be the 17th edition of the IEE Regulations.
Somehow I don't think that 'repair' makes it. I wouldn't accept it personally.
Tell them about the bent treacle edges!
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GMPMotorsport
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| posted on 9/2/10 at 07:39 PM |
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The cable bodge is 100% wrong but the plastic fittings are ok, being used more and more these days.
www.gmpdevelopments.co.uk
www.gmpmotorsport.co.uk
ARDS Instructer.
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r1_pete
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| posted on 9/2/10 at 07:57 PM |
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Thanks guys, I was 99.999% sure it is wrong.
I know the plastic fittings are getting common, but both these are straights, and the pipes going in and out are at slight angles, obviously forced
in, and I'll lay money on a future leak.... They've used solder ring everywhere else, these were just a bit awkward to clean.
They're not getting over the doorstep tomorrow until I've spoken to the company owner......
[Edited on 9/2/10 by r1_pete]
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JoelP
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| posted on 9/2/10 at 08:04 PM |
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that repair is actually fine, if the finished product is heat shrunk. Crimps are allowed to be inaccessible, screwed connections must remain
accessible. Tape isnt allowed as it can be removed without a tool hence doesnt count as a second layer of insulation - heat shrink is fine.
Now you may think you have paid enough for your kitchen that you deserve a 'proper' fix by having the cable replaced anyway, and this may
well be so. However if you google the crimp and heatshrink technique, the consensus is that its well within the regs, even if its not to the standard
you expect.
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JoelP
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| posted on 9/2/10 at 08:12 PM |
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the plastic plumbing fittings are sadly on the increase due to speed and simplicity. I dont use them myself, but by all accounts they are reliable
these days. Fitters like them as they go onto wet pipes fine, are fast, and the better ones can be removed and reused if you forgot something. I was
actually thinking about them earlier, trying to weigh the cost of my time vs the extra cost of the fittings, and its a close call really.
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r1_pete
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| posted on 9/2/10 at 08:13 PM |
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Thanks, its definately tape.......
Image deleted by owner
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t16turbotone
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| posted on 9/2/10 at 08:13 PM |
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^^^^^yep Joel is 100% correct!
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Charlie_Zetec
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| posted on 9/2/10 at 08:36 PM |
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That tape looks nasty! Having just reqired the upstairs on my house (with qualified sparky mate, I hasten to add!), we ripped everything out and
started afresh. There were junction blocks galore, that i'm not a fan of, but nothing that bad!
There looks to be a decent amount of slack in the cable - I'd personally just repair using a junction block. Just my 2p's worth, though!
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity!
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iank
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| posted on 9/2/10 at 08:52 PM |
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The main problem with the tape is it isn't waterproof if one of those pipes leaks.
Heatshrink would be ok, but not as good as having it replaced.
--
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Anonymous
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andyharding
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| posted on 9/2/10 at 09:50 PM |
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The pipe joints look like JG Speedfit to me the best you can buy and completely reliable. Some of the cheapo ones (Screwfix own brand) blow off copper
pipe but never had a problem with the Speedfit.
With regards to the electrical repair I'd report it to their regulator if they are a member of a Part P scheme (which they should be) and see
what they think.
Are you a Mac user or a retard?
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avagolen
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| posted on 9/2/10 at 09:53 PM |
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Hi, just adding my 2 pence worth.
The idea of adding a junction box is not so good. If one is put in, there must be access to it.
Secondly, as refering to the comment of a joint near those water pipes, unless the box was ip65 rated, it would be at risk of the joints getting
wet
Len.
The Answer for everything, but never the last word....
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bodger
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| posted on 9/2/10 at 10:20 PM |
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If they were just fitters I doubt they would be Part P certified and so they shouldn't have touched it.
As AndyHarding said just tell them your going to check with the building inspector to make sure it's ok. If it is & they were qualified to
do it then everyones happy, if not they'll have to explain it to the inspector.
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Thinking about it
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| posted on 10/2/10 at 12:05 AM |
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If they do that sort of thing, the chances are they will try to cut corners else where. Personally I would F***K them off right now and give my money
to someone else. I have had the cowboys before and never again.
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mangogrooveworkshop
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| posted on 10/2/10 at 12:30 AM |
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Its 2 or 3 mts of twin and earth just haul the damaged bit out and put a new bit in.
Shit like that happens all the time....if you start fighting with them you will only get their backs up and you will get a lousy job.......
Been on both sides....contractor and client.....customer used to get half the fixings if we dint get offered a cuppa...and lord help em if we got
plain chocolate free biscuits.....used to tell them the dogs licked all the chocolate off and they would apologise and get some proper ones.
Wife sold kitchens both here and SA and the number of things that could go wrong is incredible....
just get a piece of twin and earth and pull it in to the ring........not a biggie.....
shouting off is like complaining in a resturant.....they wont tell you when the make another mistake and that could be something like a screw into a
pipe ect that could leak later...
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stevebubs
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| posted on 10/2/10 at 01:26 AM |
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Wow...those last 2 posts are polar opposite....Mango - while I understand what you're saying, if they bodge something, there's no pride
(probably wrong word - too much beer) in their work. If there's no pride, then I'd agree - where else will they cut corners?
Personally, I'd just have quiet word, and say while I appreciate they've put a temporary fix in to overcome the immediate problem, what
are they going to do as a permanent repair.
Depending on the outcome of that conversation would depend whether I'd side with Mango or Thinking
[Edited on 10/2/10 by stevebubs]
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stevebubs
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| posted on 10/2/10 at 01:31 AM |
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PS an alternative tack to take would be to get a sparky to look at it on the Q.T. and if he's unhappy, get him to fix it and hit them with his
bill once the kitchen is finished.
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Jubal
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| posted on 10/2/10 at 08:05 AM |
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quote:
shouting off is like complaining in a resturant.....they wont tell you when the make another mistake and that could be something like a screw
into a pipe ect that could leak later...
I'm glad I never employed you. Doing lower quality work because you didn't get a choccie biscuit. That's the most childish thing I
ever heard. Where's your pride?
This is a problem with society. Instead of taking a pride in their work and realising they might have made a mistake people look for ways to have one
over on anyone who dares to question them.
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BenB
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| posted on 10/2/10 at 08:13 AM |
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Yup, you can't add a junction box because it's not accesible. Hidden junction boxes are a no-no as I suppose the thinking is they're
more liable to break.
Then again, when did the building regs actually make sense e.g.
Now all non-protected wires hidden in walls (e.g. under plaster) have to have a MCB on that circuit. So you have to have a split consumer unit to
comply with 17th edition regs. But that still means if a socket trips the MCB you're going to lose some lights.
More people get injured falling down stairs / tripping over when the lighting circuit goes (ie trying to get to the CU in the dark) than by being
electrocuted from a lighting circuit not on a MCB...... Which is why you always had the lighting on the unprotected bit of the split CU, now you have
to have two MCBs...
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franky
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| posted on 10/2/10 at 08:39 AM |
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As said a word on the QT should do the job. Part P is a bloody joke and it does not make people competent.
If you get the time i'd do the whole lot myself as then at least you know its been done properly.
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MakeEverything
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| posted on 10/2/10 at 08:42 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by BenB
Yup, you can't add a junction box because it's not accesible. Hidden junction boxes are a no-no as I suppose the thinking is they're
more liable to break.
Then again, when did the building regs actually make sense e.g.
Now all non-protected wires hidden in walls (e.g. under plaster) have to have a MCB on that circuit. So you have to have a split consumer unit to
comply with 17th edition regs. But that still means if a socket trips the MCB you're going to lose some lights.
More people get injured falling down stairs / tripping over when the lighting circuit goes (ie trying to get to the CU in the dark) than by being
electrocuted from a lighting circuit not on a MCB...... Which is why you always had the lighting on the unprotected bit of the split CU, now you have
to have two MCBs...
The lighting circuits are all protected, but the split boards now, have one side protected with an RCD - as per the 17th edition regs whereby
generally all domestic socket outlets are to be protected by an RCD. Its been a while since i did domestic installation, but i passed my 17th edition
last week!
Junction boxes (The regs state "Joints" need to be accessible for inspection, as quite often (and ive seen this on 3000A main switches),
the terminals can work loose as a result of the frequency and vibration. This leads to arc, heat and ultimately fire.
Not only is the tape above not waterproof, but have the cable conductors been damaged as well?? Either way, the cabe should be replaced as (under
BS7671) it would no longer be deemed as safe and would fail an electrical inspection.
Part P was bought in to prevent this type of work. Who is certificating their electrical work? - Or is this all they are doing in that area.
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
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andyharding
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| posted on 10/2/10 at 08:59 AM |
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Just to clarify 17th edition these new twin rcd consumer units are not actually compliant. Looks like lots are being fitted as they are cheaper and
being claimed as 17th edition but the only true way to achieve compliance with 17th edition is to have a RCBO on every single circuit. IMHO this is
the *best* way to do it anyway to avoid nuisance tripping but certainly not the cheapest.
Are you a Mac user or a retard?
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r1_pete
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| posted on 10/2/10 at 09:32 AM |
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Thanks for all the advice chaps, will be having a word as soon as the office opens at 10.00, I'm feeling a bit more rational now.
They are supposed to be a high end company, the units and fittings are top notch, but if the 'fundementals' are botched, its best part of
£15K down the gurgler....
Cheers.
Pete.
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JoelP
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| posted on 10/2/10 at 06:58 PM |
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what company is it pete? If you dont mind me asking.
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