DIY Si
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 posted on 30/5/11 at 11:29 AM |
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Welding to a sierra upright?
I have need of advice again.
I'm slowly doing up my Sprite, and am starting to look seriously at the front suspension. I'm changing to sierra uprights which have the
steering arm integral to the bottom of the upright, whilst the Sprite's are bolted on at the top.
Having had a close look at the uprights, there is a nice flat section at the top where it would be possible to weld a thick bit of steel to act as a
steering arm, possibly going as far over as the pinch bolt hole. I would then remove most/all of the current steering arm.
I can't think of a way of bolting a steering arm on where I need it, and I don't like the idea of using an extension piece to move the
ball joint upwards from the current steering arm as I'm worried about it not being stiff enough.
My question though, is would welding a piece of 10mm or so steel on cause any issues with the upright itself? I think they're cast steel, so the
welding itself should be fairly simple.
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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deezee
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| posted on 30/5/11 at 11:49 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DIY Si
the welding itself should be fairly simple.
I think you'll find its totally the opposite. The heat you add to the casting ruins the grain and its likely to fracture. I think its probably
an MOT failure as well unless you hide it.
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phelpsa
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| posted on 30/5/11 at 11:54 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by deezee
quote:
Originally posted by DIY Si
the welding itself should be fairly simple.
I think you'll find its totally the opposite. The heat you add to the casting ruins the grain and its likely to fracture. I think its probably
an MOT failure as well unless you hide it.
I'm pretty sure they're forged not cast and therefore no real problems.
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designer
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| posted on 30/5/11 at 12:05 PM |
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To be sure I would get this bit welded by an expert.
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rusty nuts
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| posted on 30/5/11 at 12:26 PM |
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Suspect it would be an instant MOT failure
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eddbaz
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| posted on 30/5/11 at 12:36 PM |
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I'd have serious reservations doing it, i'd be thinking of the consequence and possible outcome if it was to fail while driving.
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deezee
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| posted on 30/5/11 at 12:36 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by phelpsa
I'm pretty sure they're forged not cast and therefore no real problems.
They are, as confirmed by Coozer a while back, at the Ford plant in Belguim, cast.
"The uprights are cast from Spheroidal graphite cast iron. DIN EN 1563"
You should NOT be welding to these.
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britishtrident
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| posted on 30/5/11 at 12:48 PM |
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SG cast iron as are most parts on Fords that are forgings on other makes.
Way to test for cast Iron is attack it with an angle grinder, if produces lots of black dust it is cast iron.
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coozer
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| posted on 30/5/11 at 01:15 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by deezee
quote:
Originally posted by phelpsa
I'm pretty sure they're forged not cast and therefore no real problems.
They are, as confirmed by Coozer a while back, at the Ford plant in Belguim, cast.
"The uprights are cast from Spheroidal graphite cast iron. DIN EN 1563"
You should NOT be welding to these.
Yep, they are drop forged and therefore the grain structure is critical. Welding them will end in disaster
1972 V8 Jago
1980 Z750
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v8kid
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| posted on 30/5/11 at 01:22 PM |
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Hmm - The uprights on my Silva Riot as supplied by Jeremy are ford items and they are welded. Silva have an enviable engineering heritage and I would
be surprised if they did anything remotely dodgy.
Might be worth a bit more investigation.
Cheers!
You'd be surprised how quickly the sales people at B&Q try and assist you after ignoring you for the past 15 minutes when you try and start a
chainsaw
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blakep82
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| posted on 30/5/11 at 01:39 PM |
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to start with, i would not be welding them.
however that said, its quite ok to fabircate your own welded uprights? whats the deal with that at iva/mot etc?
________________________
IVA manual link http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1081997083
don't write OT on a new thread title, you're creating the topic, everything you write is very much ON topic!
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DIY Si
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| posted on 30/5/11 at 02:26 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by v8kid
Hmm - The uprights on my Silva Riot as supplied by Jeremy are ford items and they are welded. Silva have an enviable engineering heritage and I would
be surprised if they did anything remotely dodgy.
Might be worth a bit more investigation.
Cheers!
This is what I mean. I know there are cars out there with welded uprights, so is it really as bad as some people think? Or are they earlier uprights
which ARE steel?
And if it is that bad, what would folk suggest as a viable alternative? Are there are readily available uprights with ball joints AND a top mounted
steering arm?
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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blakep82
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| posted on 30/5/11 at 02:28 PM |
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http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=1375_1594_1595&products_id=13605
you can bolt them on however you like 
________________________
IVA manual link http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1081997083
don't write OT on a new thread title, you're creating the topic, everything you write is very much ON topic!
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DIY Si
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| posted on 30/5/11 at 02:36 PM |
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Indeed, but at £400 for uprights, hubs with the wrong PCD and all the bits they're not very locost! 
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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v8kid
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| posted on 30/5/11 at 02:46 PM |
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Ha! checked the uprights and they are specified as Capri ones could that be the difference?
You'd be surprised how quickly the sales people at B&Q try and assist you after ignoring you for the past 15 minutes when you try and start a
chainsaw
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phelpsa
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| posted on 30/5/11 at 04:07 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by deezee
quote:
Originally posted by phelpsa
I'm pretty sure they're forged not cast and therefore no real problems.
They are, as confirmed by Coozer a while back, at the Ford plant in Belguim, cast.
"The uprights are cast from Spheroidal graphite cast iron. DIN EN 1563"
You should NOT be welding to these.
In which case ignore me!
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britishtrident
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| posted on 30/5/11 at 04:44 PM |
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I think there is a bit of confusion regarding manufacturing process, Ford cast a lot of parts in SG Cast iron which is different manufacturing
process and material from drop forging steel, however welding steering parts made from either is a definite o-go.
SG cast iron is a very high strtength cast iron Ford pioneered the use of it for components such as crankshafts and connecting rods.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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DIY Si
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| posted on 30/5/11 at 04:53 PM |
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So either way then, I'll have to either bolt something to the top of the upright, extend the mushroom some how, or use a spacer on the existing
steering arm?
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 31/5/11 at 01:47 PM |
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Interesting that modifying the suspension components would invalidate the MOT, but making your own doesn't?!
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DIY Si
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| posted on 31/5/11 at 02:37 PM |
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That was part of my thinking. I could design and make my own welded uprights, but welding something to a steel upright would cause issues. Since mine
aren't steel for me it's irrelevant, but an oddity all the same.
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 31/5/11 at 02:42 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DIY Si
That was part of my thinking. I could design and make my own welded uprights, but welding something to a steel upright would cause issues. Since mine
aren't steel for me it's irrelevant, but an oddity all the same.
Not really, a fabricated upright would have to be made from a material that is suitable for welding. Welding something as critical as a steering arm
onto a cast component is obviously a very poor idea.
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 31/5/11 at 02:45 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by coozer
quote:
Originally posted by deezee
quote:
Originally posted by phelpsa
I'm pretty sure they're forged not cast and therefore no real problems.
They are, as confirmed by Coozer a while back, at the Ford plant in Belguim, cast.
"The uprights are cast from Spheroidal graphite cast iron. DIN EN 1563"
You should NOT be welding to these.
Yep, they are drop forged and therefore the grain structure is critical. Welding them will end in disaster
This is a bit contradictory; are they drop forged (in which case they are steel) or are they cast in SG iron?
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 31/5/11 at 02:47 PM |
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quote:
Not really, a fabricated upright would have to be made from a material that is suitable for welding. Welding something as critical as a
steering arm onto a cast component is obviously a very poor idea.
That's assuming the person who made the upright knows what's suitable strength-wise etc. If you know what's suitable for welding and
strength-wise enough to make an upright you reasonable be expected to know what material your upright is and whether or not to weld it (in this case
I'd say no, no and god no).
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