will having an ignition key, starter button and a removeable quick release wheel be adequate as 2 forms of immobilisation? the wheel has kliktrontic gear change on it so it would be impossible to drive without it!
as far as i can recall sierra steering lock counts as 1 sierra ignition switch as 2 but I had an fia type master switch mounted under bonnet
tony
The ignition key will be. Not sure about the starter button though. If someone could correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure you can't have a quick release wheel for SVA?
its actually an fia style switch but it is used to start the car and is in reach of drivers seat. why can a quick release wheel not be used?
The FIA switch counts as one yes, I know that from Gavs SVA. The removable wheel is not favoured as it is removable and could be taken off whilst driving. I think that's the reason. If you do a search I'm sure you'll find loads.
if thats the case im in big trouble.my sva is next thursday and my eletronic gear change is built into the wheel on 2 red buttons! thanks mate i will have to check it out
People have passed and some failed with removable wheels; Depends upon the tester. Either put in a hidden switch or better still an immobiliser.
FIA switch isnt' always excepted for security as the keys are all the same.
is ther no way you can make the wheel appear to be none removable ?
I had only the sierra ignition and standard steering lock passed with no problems
quote:
Originally posted by mistergrumpy
The FIA switch counts as one yes, I know that from Gavs SVA. The removable wheel is not favoured as it is removable and could be taken off whilst driving. I think that's the reason. If you do a search I'm sure you'll find loads.
Ignition key and a cut off switch under the bonnet.
I've seen removable wheels with the squeeze collar type hub locked by drilling and tapping set screws in from underneath. (which stops you
squeezing the collars together). This counts as permanent as you need tools to remove it. Of course if the set screws were to fall out then the
wheel would become removable again.....
I think you might have more problems with the wheel. Some testers have been insisting on a type approved wheel, which means a production car item.
This isn't what the book says but, as ever with VOSA, a lot depends on whether the tester got his leg over etc...
Assuming that you can use the fitted wheel, does it pass the radius/padding point of view?
Cheers
Chris
quote:
Originally posted by andys101
A removable steering wheel isn't acceptable as an anti theft system.
Andy.
quote:
Originally posted by iiyama
quote:
Originally posted by andys101
A removable steering wheel isn't acceptable as an anti theft system.
Andy.
Not true bud, sorry!
Just gone through SVA with a removable wheel as the second form of anti theft and it was accepted. Mine is lockable as its a Mountney item.
3 years ago at Gosforth i was told if i had removeable wheel of any description i would be failed.
Passed with an ignition key on dash and a Cat 2 immobiliser. I had removed the steering lock and ignition barrel from the upper column bearing
housing.
quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
quote:
Originally posted by iiyama
quote:
Originally posted by andys101
A removable steering wheel isn't acceptable as an anti theft system.
Andy.
Not true bud, sorry!
Just gone through SVA with a removable wheel as the second form of anti theft and it was accepted. Mine is lockable as its a Mountney item.
The point that Chris made is that there is a degree of variation with VOSA, so just because something is OK on one day at one place doesn't actually make it 'true'
John
IIRC the steering wheel boss needs to be colapsable and from what I have seen none of the removable bosses are so that would be a fail.
The Removable wheel system I have bolts onto a Momo collapsible boss.
Hey up andys101. You seem to be more knowledgable than most, good to get some wisdom.
It doesnt surprise me that there are so many different interpretations. I had no issue with the advice i was given ref removeable wheels. In the end i
fitted a SWM aftermarket wheel and MOMO collapsable boss to get through SVA. Obviously after discussion with my tester and ensuring the wheel
conformed to radii etc. Having had the pleasure of working for a steering system manufacturer it often amazes me how some removeable wheel bosses are
ever allowed to be used. The generic concept is a bit iffy anyway for road use imho. Ive seen what the OE's have to go through to get a system
approved hence why i even cringe at the thought of modifying intermediate shafts (i had a mate who was nearly sacked after a modified system was
modelled by very senior development specialists with years of experience and failed on a test track).
If in doubt go for type approved system. Should be no questions then.
I think the point is that there is no consistancy amongst the test stations or individual testers.
Even looking through this thread that much is obvious.
Through the club I have personally seen the following:-
A car pass with a removable after market steering wheel, which was counted as one of the anti theft devices.
A car with the same set up where the steering wheel was not accepted as an anti theft feature but passed.
A car with a removable steering wheel that failed because of it.
A car with a wheel which was fixed and met the radius/padding guidlines because, and I quote, "It's got to be a production car
wheel"
I don't think anyone is trying to "dodge" the regulations but it is difficult to build a car to a standard that is anything but
"standard".
The situation is about to get worse with the move to IVA as VOSA begin to test cars to a standard that hasn't even being published!
How are you supposed to hit a moving target?
Andys101
I would guess from your profile that you are a tester, have you any comment to make, or even better, could you get VOSA to comment, on the two
issues?
1.The inconsistancies in the steering wheel issues.
2. Testing vehicles to a standard which as yet has not been finalised (or may have been finalised but not published to builders).
Cheers
Chris
^^^^
Nicely put sir! I dont think anyone wants to persecute anyone else because of what they do for a living buf I absolutly agree that some of the VOSA
rules are far to open to interpretation by the tester.
MOT's also seem to be a case in point. Fail at one garage could be a pass at another.
Andy - you are a star and i for one applaud you for your comments.
I had my test done at Gosforth. I felt it was strict but extremely fair. As is your approach, me tester too was open in the discussion following the
first fail and i was given plenty of time to have a constructive and objective discussion so that i was totally clear what needed to be done to pass
second time around. Iam absolutely convinced that as a result of this i ended up with a good and well built car that was safe enough for me to take my
family out in. Cant say fairer than that can you?
quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
its actually an fia style switch but it is used to start the car and is in reach of drivers seat. why can a quick release wheel not be used?
quote:
Originally posted by andys101
I couldnt possibly comment on another examiners decision.
I can advise that you are well within your right to appeal the decision "AT THE TIME OF THE TEST"
As I see it the manual is quite black and white in certain areas protective steering being one of them.
My opinion as given in this thread is backed up by the inspection manual.
If a presenter is not happy with one of my decisions I WHOLE HEARTEDLY want you to question that decision.
No one leaves my test station in any doubt of the required standard, I will identify every failure item and explain the required standard, I wont tell you how to fix it just what it should be like when its fixed.
Ref IVA manuals - by the 29th April the standards will be finalised.
I hope you all find this information usefull.
Andy.
I agree that in an ideal world the book and test would be devoid of any ambiguity and applied in exasctly the same way at all test centres.
Unfortunately we dont live in an ideal World. If we take the SVA as applied to Kit Cars (just to remove the variable of other cars being tested), it
is rare for 2 identical cars to be built by one person. All the cars are subtly different and have followed differing build routes and processes. If
it was me who had the task of writing an unambiguoaus manual to cover all eventualities, id probs decline the kind offer and go and solve world
hunger. Ref SVA - i would simply suggest that a system of suggestions and evolution is employed (as is probably the case now).
I really dont see how we can ever get to a position where everything is applied equally. Unless of course;
1. Kit cars were outlawed, or,
2. The rules were so rigid that only a handful of variations were allowed and we all had to build state regulation vehicles.
Nobody wants either of those so for now we should accept that the world is a varied and interesting place and just take each test on its own merits
and do what is needed to be awarded the MAC. IMO oppinion the testers do a great job and have to deal with some pretty awkward and emotive people at
times that are apprehensive about their pride and joy being scrutinised. As is often the case i was rewarded with good suggestions and help after the
test by inquiring in a professional and objective manner.
All very good points and I agree to a certain extent, it just seems to me that over the last ten years some sort of consensus on what is, and is not,
acceptable should have been found.
Do the testers meet up or have a feedback system - perhaps Andy can tell us?
I don't think it's too big a task to make a set of guidelines in simple terms, maybe as a FAQ maintained by VOSA.
For example.
Q. Can I use a removable steering wheel?
A. Well we can't answer that one but maybe VOSA can!
The new regulations seem to me to be an ideal opportunity to put something in place that helps people to know what the standard is.
Cheers
Chris
We are all thinking the same Chris, but i just dont think its going to happen. Unfortunately grey areas are a part of life. MOT's have been
around longer than SVA and they still provide a source of discussion on interpretation.
My understanding was that the senior SVA guys do pass suggestions and engage in discussion. It is probably fair to say that there are less grey areas
now than there used to be. Problem is that as parts that were once the exclusive domain of the wealthier race teams are becoming the norm in our
builds (ie QR steering hubs, digi dashes etc) the tests will always have new grey areas and need to evolve.
If we were all focussed on easily passing the test, we would have a long running thread by now on how to keep out of the grey zone. In this thread the
subject of steering would simply read - use the full OE type approved system as old Henry etc intended. (except they look naff so we dont).
At least we have the opportunity to pass such a test. Im thankful for that.
Andy, can I just say how we apprieciate your comments...well I do anyway.
I think the manual rules regarding removable wheels are clear that, when interpreted/declared as a security device, you can't have one as it can
be removed with the engine running. Now if you had a micro-switch that cut the engine first..? What happens if you've got 2 other mathods of
security and don't claim it as a security device (just to get in easier)?
The rules on steering wheels is also clear;
i, from a type approved vehicle,
ii, type approved with proof,
iii, giving equivilent protection to a type approved one.
That last bit is the gray bit and imposible for the tester to know, so you fail.
Any that have passed have just been lucky (or not if something goes wrong).
As for black and white rules; Most of the moaning regarding fails is about radius rules and they are very clear (if long winded) leaving little room
for interpretation.
adrian
I can remove the ignition key in any production vehicle while driving. Now I cant do that accidently, Ill grant you. However I cant do it accidently
with the removable wheel system I have either.
[Edited on 26/3/09 by iiyama]
...but the rule says that a mechanical device cannot be activated with the engine still running or the engine started while it is activated. Not that
it cant be set while driving.
adrian
you cant turn the ignition key in any car with the engine running then??
Good answers everywhere, but never saw the question asked directly, have you still got the original steering lock built into the column, and the
original key to turn on the igniion (though not to operate the starter)??
If so, there's your two.
Why do people make their lives difficult when a donor steering column makes it so easy! (and no I didn't use a sierra one as I hate all the
plastic, but other donors exist! )
[Edited on 26/3/09 by NS Dev]
Maybe in regard to parts like this there should be guidelines set up with the manufacturers, therefore any parts we buy are marked "Road
legal" or "Race legal" and then there'll be no ambiguity.
I'm sure there are very set guidelines for build quality issues i.e. nothing sticking out which could cut someone's leg off
quote:
Originally posted by andys101
quote:
Originally posted by iiyama
you cant turn the ignition key in any car with the engine running then??
Not without turning the engine off....
quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
Good answers everywhere, but never saw the question asked directly, have you still got the original steering lock built into the column, and the original key to turn on the igniion (though not to operate the starter)??
quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
Why do people make their lives difficult when a donor steering column makes it so easy! (and no I didn't use a sierra one as I hate all the plastic, but other donors exist! )
quote:
Originally posted by iiyama
My point being that 99% of people wont be stupid enough to pull the key out while moving, conversly 99% of people wont be stupid enough to remove the sterring wheel even if the option exists!
Exactamundo! 
Always legislating for the minority, not the majority.
...but if you could start the car independant of releasing the steering lock, how many people would set off with the steering still locked?
Thats why the rules are the way they are.
Over the years I've had several customers attempt to tow a car without turning the key and had the wheel lock on them.
adrian
quote:
Originally posted by adithorp
...but if you could start the car independant of releasing the steering lock, how many people would set off with the steering still locked?
Thats why the rules are the way they are.
Over the years I've had several customers attempt to tow a car without turning the key and had the wheel lock on them.
adrian