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IVA Rear Fog light new RS/notes
loggyboy - 14/8/13 at 11:55 AM

Theres been a few discussions relating to the new note (4) in the rear fog light section of the latest IVA Manual.

4. The rear fog lamp(s) must only illuminate when dipped beam, main beam or
front fog lamps are lit (See Notes 3 & 4)

Note 4: Either of the following applies:
1) The rear fog lamp(s) may continue to operate until the position lamps
are switched off, and the rear fog lamp(s) must then remain off until
deliberately switched on again or,
2) An audible warning, additional to the mandatory tell-tale light, must be
activated if the ignition is switched off or the ignition key is withdrawn
and the driver's door is opened, whether the lamps in (RS4) are on or off,
whilst the rear fog lamp switch is in the "on" position.


The basics of this is that you either need slightly more complex wiring to ensure that either:

When the fog is on and the position/dipped/main/front etc lights are switched off, the fog light must not relight when the position/dipped/mains/front fogs lights are turned back on.

OR

You have a buzzer that warns the driver the fog light switch is still on when he switches the car off. (note this must warn that the fog SWITCH is still on, as if the dipped lights have already been switch off, the light it self will not be on)

The premise being is that (stupid) people often forget to turn their fogs off and this is one way to reduce this.

There was mention that these new notes only came in to effect when the rear fog could be activated by the sidelight/front fog combination, however I have recieved an email from VOSA stating: The notes 3 and 4 in this section of the manual refer specifically to rear fog lamp operation, not the operation of the switching arrangement.,

Therefore (IMO) the notes do apply to all rear fogs.

Charlie_Zetec - 14/8/13 at 03:48 PM

As with all these things, isn't it open to interpretation by the tester?

The way you've worded it and approached suggests you'd need some sort of latching relay on a switch for the rear fog light, which then disengages or resets when the dipped/main lights are turned off.

But, and I mean BUT, the way you could look at it is that the rear fog lights can only be switched on or off when the dipped/main beams are on. The switch from the main lights essentially controls the fog light then, and unless you manually turn them on, the fog light remains off. This could be covered by the "the fog lamp must remain off until it is switched on again" - which you are doing with the main beam switch.

I would suggest that the second note is mostly irrelevant as you could interpret it as the '7' has no doors, so anything that requires buzzers on drivers' door does not apply.

loggyboy - 14/8/13 at 03:58 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Charlie_Zetec
As with all these things, isn't it open to interpretation by the tester?

The way you've worded it and approached suggests you'd need some sort of latching relay on a switch for the rear fog light, which then disengages or resets when the dipped/main lights are turned off.

But, and I mean BUT, the way you could look at it is that the rear fog lights can only be switched on or off when the dipped/main beams are on. The switch from the main lights essentially controls the fog light then, and unless you manually turn them on, the fog light remains off. This could be covered by the "the fog lamp must remain off until it is switched on again" - which you are doing with the main beam switch.

I would suggest that the second note is mostly irrelevant as you could interpret it as the '7' has no doors, so anything that requires buzzers on drivers' door does not apply.


The rear fog has ALWAYS been controlled by the dipped or mains in addition to its own switch, (as listed in RS4 which hasnt changed since the first version of the manual). If that was the interpreation, the new note would not be necessary. You also missed out the word dilberately from the 'turned on again' note. Again, pointing to the fact the fog light must be deliberatley turned on, not inadvertently because the dipped lights were turned back on.

The buzzer note contains an 'or', which covers cars with out doors 'An audible warning, additional to the mandatory tell-tale light, must be activated if the ignition is switched off OR.... etc etc


[Edited on 14-8-13 by loggyboy]

Charlie_Zetec - 14/8/13 at 04:12 PM

Sorry if I was sounding pernickety, it wasn't my intention. But I was wondering, how many production cars run in the same way with the fog staying off after the side/main lights have been switched off?

Please bear in mind that I run a Defender as my daily car, and SWMBO has an '04 Merc C class coupe, neither of which run in the new way.

Just means my nice illuminated savage switch will have to work in a new-fandangled way now, not as I had originally intended! Anyone gone through IVA since these revisions that could comment on their setup or experience?

loggyboy - 14/8/13 at 04:20 PM

Its ok, its always good to hear other peoples interpretations and ideas, as its quite plausable the tester may have read it the same way!

My renaults all work in this way (2002 clio and 2007 megane), they have a momentary switch for both front and rear fogs that automatically switch off when the ign is reset.

big-vee-twin - 14/8/13 at 04:38 PM

I have to say I agree entirley with Loggy boy and for the cost of a relay and buzzer £5, I intend to fit one its not worth failing IVA for such a small cost.

theduck - 14/8/13 at 05:49 PM

Anyone care to share a wiring diagram for the buzzer setup. Something else I need to add...

loggyboy - 14/8/13 at 06:30 PM

Fairly simple, double pole switch for fog light, one to fog (supply from dipped supply), the other fed from perm power, on to an earth that is switched via relay to be on when the ignition is off.

big-vee-twin - 14/8/13 at 07:33 PM

Wire a relay coil one side to earth the other side to a switched live, so whenever ignition is on the relay is energised.

Using a normally closed contact on the relay wire one side to a buzzer connect other side of buzzer to earth.

Other side of relay contact connects to normally open pole on fog light switch fed from permanent supply.

Connected like this if the fog light switch is on and the ignition key is out the buzzer will buzz reminding you to turn it off when you remove the key irrespective of whether lights are on or off.

If its wired through the lighting circuit if the lights are off when the key is removed the buzzer will not buzz when fog light is left on.

Toprivetguns - 14/8/13 at 08:13 PM

So a big red light with the FOG sign is not sufficient?

Thanks for this, very close to IVA.

Cheers

Andy S - 14/8/13 at 08:40 PM

If like on our Fury buyild you have a switch already in the dash and it is not a double pole switch - many are not, then you need to use two relays.

The fog light switch has a permanent live to it that switches a relay coil that has the supply from the main lights on one side of a N/O contact and the fog light on the other contact.

The permanent live out of the fog light switch also goes to the buzzer relay as described above

Switched Ignition live to the relay coil - Feed from the fog light switch to one side of NC contact and buzzer on the other.

Maplin costs should about £10 for two relays and a buzzer .

Simple enough

Andrew

rdodger - 14/8/13 at 09:19 PM

I passed IVA a few weeks ago shortly after the revision in the manual.

I specifically asked the tester about the buzzer etc.

He pointed at the manual and said it only applies if you have the ability to turn the fog light on with the side lights.

If it's wired to dipped/main beam nothing has changed. No requirement to have a buzzer or anything else.

snapper - 15/8/13 at 05:47 AM

Can we see notes 3&4 together
We can only see note 4 and sub sections

FEZ1025 - 15/8/13 at 06:47 AM

Would somebody be willing to put together a simplified diagram for a buzzer system?

Alan...

loggyboy - 15/8/13 at 08:01 AM

I would try something like this

David Jenkins - 15/8/13 at 08:34 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Charlie_Zetec
Sorry if I was sounding pernickety, it wasn't my intention. But I was wondering, how many production cars run in the same way with the fog staying off after the side/main lights have been switched off?


My Yaris's light switch arrangement means that you can't leave the fogs on if you turn the lights off - twisting the lights to off pushes the fog light switch back to off. My previous car was a Focus, and that had a similar idea - you can't put the fogs on until the light switch was in a certain position, and you can't turn the lights off until you reset the fogs. My daughter's Golf was similar. I had a car a while ago where you put the fogs on and off with a push button, which was reset when the iginition was turned off.

So - nothing new in the production car world.

loggyboy - 15/8/13 at 06:08 PM

quote:
Originally posted by snapper
Can we see notes 3&4 together
We can only see note 4 and sub sections


Note 3: front fog lamps may be illuminated with the side lamps only.

Note 4: Either of the following applies:
1) The rear fog lamp(s) may continue to operate until the position lamps are switched off, and the rear fog lamp(s) must then remain off until deliberately switched on again or,
2) An audible warning, additional to the mandatory tell-tale light, must be activated if the ignition is switched off or the ignition key is withdrawn and the driver's door is opened, whether the lamps in (RS4) are on or off, whilst the rear fog lamp switch is in the "on" position.

theduck - 16/8/13 at 07:50 AM

They've changed it to with side lamps only?! It was previously must not come on with side lamps? So only on with dipped and main beam?

loggyboy - 16/8/13 at 07:55 AM

quote:
Originally posted by theduck
They've changed it to with side lamps only?! It was previously must not come on with side lamps? So only on with dipped and main beam?


Its never been sidelights (for IVA, not sure about SVA).

Front fog can come on with sides(positions) lights, and THEN the rear fog can then come on if the front fogs are on, but the rear can not come on with sides/positions alone.

theduck - 16/8/13 at 08:10 AM

Just realised I misread it. It's front fogs with side lamps only

turnipfarmer - 8/10/13 at 05:41 PM

I was confused by the whole Note 4 business, so I sent an email to VOSA for a definitive answer.

Their reply is on page 4 of this Rhocar thread...

http://www.rhocar.org/index.php?showtopic=37712&st=45

Dave Bailey - 8/10/13 at 08:21 PM

I would check with your IVA centre because I have just been and had my test and was told that the fog light requirement had been challenged by the testers themselves because they think that it isn't reasonable. I have just passed with the old requirement.

Dave B

Acc8braman - 8/10/13 at 08:45 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Bailey
I would check with your IVA centre because I have just been and had my test and was told that the fog light requirement had been challenged by the testers themselves because they think that it isn't reasonable. I have just passed with the old requirement.

Dave B


Excellent news

loggyboy - 8/10/13 at 08:59 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Acc8braman
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Bailey
I would check with your IVA centre because I have just been and had my test and was told that the fog light requirement had been challenged by the testers themselves because they think that it isn't reasonable. I have just passed with the old requirement.

Dave B


Excellent news


Sounds sensible, but if its still in the manual then it only takes one tester to spoil your day. Until a revised manual is issued I wouldnt risk a £90 restest for sake of £5 of relays and a buzzer or similar.

Dave Bailey - 8/10/13 at 09:03 PM

Call them in advance and ask... I did!

Dave B

turnipfarmer - 8/10/13 at 09:42 PM

I was going to ask the local test centre, too.

But then I thought... hold on... what happens if I don't get the particular individual I spoke to doing my test for some reason? Another tester may have an entirely different view. And I've only got a verbal opinion anyway.

By emailing VOSA head office, I now have a definitive statement in writing that I can work to. Plus it's something I can show at the local test centre that they can't really argue with, as it's come from the outfit that makes the rules, the outfit who are presumably their superiors.

Also as the email postdates the latest manual, it is effectively an update.

Or at least that was the thinking! (Probably misguided!)

I know it's probably an easy mod to do this buzzer/warning light thingy, but I would hate to do something I didn't have to, do it 'wrongly' & get failed for it.

Dave Bailey - 9/10/13 at 11:48 AM

Just read the link with the Vosa response which is exactly how mine was wired...

Side lights (no fog light)
Main or Dipped fog light can be switched on...

The buzzer or the ability to have to physically turn the fog back on after the ignition switch is turned off did not apply during my test despite being in the manual.

thanks
Dave B

Daverog - 9/10/13 at 02:15 PM

I went through SVA at Nottingham last week and I had a latching relay fitted for the original test. I was told by the examiner I did not need it and to revert to the fog lamp being switched through the dipped beam circuit as original and that those clauses did not apply to our type of vehicle. I just used a standard relay and passed no problem.

loggyboy - 9/10/13 at 02:31 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Daverog
I went through SVA at Nottingham last week and I had a latching relay fitted for the original test. I was told by the examiner I did not need it and to revert to the fog lamp being switched through the dipped beam circuit as original and that those clauses did not apply to our type of vehicle. I just used a standard relay and passed no problem.


You SVA'd a Delorean?!

Daverog - 9/10/13 at 02:37 PM

Delorean?? No, MK Indy that was a big enough challenge!!!!

Jenko - 23/10/13 at 03:23 PM

SVA has not been around for a while now, hence the requirement for a Delorean, with the fitted option of a flux capacitor ;-)

Daverog - 23/10/13 at 06:20 PM

good point, bit slow on the uptake!!

Davedew - 7/1/14 at 12:28 PM

Having read through all of the previous posts in this thread, what is the current school of thought with regards to the buzzer being needed?

I am hopefully going to IVA in the next 2-3 months and at the moment my foglight only operates with main & dipped beam as per the previous requirement.

Do I just add a buzzer into the circuit to make sure I'm covered, or is there definately on need for it?
Now car is in one piece would be a shame to have to take the dash off again.

loggyboy - 7/1/14 at 12:42 PM

Best answer is to call your chosen VOSA test center to get their opinion, they are the ones who will be judge and jury.
If you cant or dont to that, for the sake of a £90 retest, I would fit the buzzer (or a fancy latching switch if you want to get a little more complex)

Jenko - 7/1/14 at 02:29 PM

Point of clarifcation please......

must only illuminate when dipped beam, main beam or front fog lamps are lit

Could this be re-written to read 'must only illuminate when dipped beam or main beam or front fog lamps are lit'...as mine ONLY lights when the dip beam is on (and for the dip beam to be on, the side lights need to be on).

[Edited on 7/1/14 by Jenko]

[Edited on 7/1/14 by Jenko]

loggyboy - 7/1/14 at 03:07 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Jenko
Point of clarifcation please......

must only illuminate when dipped beam, main beam or front fog lamps are lit

Could this be re-written to read 'must only illuminate when dipped beam or main beam or front fog lamps are lit'...as mine ONLY lights when the dip beam is on (and for the dip beam to be on, the side lights need to be on).


Thats how I understand comma's work in general english.

Something, something or something (means something or something or something)
Something else, something else and somthing else (means something else and something else and something else)

Andy S - 7/1/14 at 03:25 PM

If fogs goes off when on Main then its a fail. Main/Dip or Fog is correct,


Also wired in a buzzer into our circuit and tester did check for it.


[Edited on 7/1/14 by Andy S]

loggyboy - 7/1/14 at 04:44 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Andy S
If fogs goes off when on Main then its a fail. Main/Dip or Fog is correct,


That is a good point but having a dipped/main could be construde as when you only have both on.

There is no real way to make it obvious in a single sentence
It could read

The rear fog lamp(s) must only illuminate when:

Dipped;
and
Dipped with Main;
and Main are lit

or;

Front Fogs are lit

Jenko - 7/1/14 at 05:17 PM

quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
quote:
Originally posted by Andy S
If fogs goes off when on Main then its a fail. Main/Dip or Fog is correct,


That is a good point but having a dipped/main could be construde as when you only have both on.

There is no real way to make it obvious in a single sentence
It could read

The rear fog lamp(s) must only illuminate when:

Dipped;
and
Dipped with Main;
and Main are lit

or;

Front Fogs are lit


But, as per your previous post, that goes against our understanding of English punctuation:
'must only illuminate when dipped beam, main beam or front fog lamps are lit'

I will be coming home Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday, to me means either of those three options, which is exactly how I read the IVA manual......


Using some common sense, I would never use my full beam when it's foggy enough to warrant the fog light being on, you simply get so much glare back..........

I really hope I don't have to start rewiring!...Guess the only true answer comes from Mr IVA man.

CosKev3 - 7/1/14 at 05:37 PM

I'm going to use a VW polo light switch,you pull it out to turn on the rear fog when headlights are on,then when you turn off your headlights to sidelights the switch physically goes in and turns off the rear fog light.
No need for buzzers or relays etc then to remind you fog is left on.

axle - 23/2/14 at 09:14 PM

[Do you know what type of relay it is, would you be able to give us a part number from Mapplin, this would be good for other buddies on the forum as well!

cheers






quote]Originally posted by loggyboy
I would try something like this

loggyboy - 20/3/14 at 04:58 PM

Just had a reply to another email I sent to VOSA for clarification.

The requirements of note 4 will therefore only apply if the rear fog lamp
then operates if the position lamps are switched off and back on, as is
possible on some modern CAN bus wiring systems. As most kit cars take the
fog lamp feed directly from the headlamp circuit, this will not be possible
and as such there is no requirement for the systems listed in note 4 to be
fitted.

I did also ask if there was to be a revision to the manual to clarify, but no mention of this was made in his reply

SteveWalker - 20/3/14 at 07:18 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Toprivetguns
So a big red light with the FOG sign is not sufficient?

Thanks for this, very close to IVA.

Cheers


The trouble is, that can be missed, especially if poorly positioned. I used to have a Mk 2 Sierra and the fog light switch (with integral warning lamp) was hidden from view when you drove in the ten to two position. I once took it for an MOT and the next morning drove for a mile or so before I noticed the warning light dimly reflected in the drivers side window.

rash12 - 20/3/14 at 07:40 PM

just fit the cartek control box and cover you arse it only 33.00 quid

CosKev3 - 20/3/14 at 08:55 PM

Or use a VW combined headlight/fog light switch,the fog light is physically turned off when you turn lights off