Hello et all

So a little background:-
Brought a STM Phoenix back in 2003 built very quickly (compared to most it was thrown together) but life got in the way an I shut the garage doors on it for 14 years.
Fast forward to earlier this month decided should finish it or get rid, so as I work under pressure applied for an IVA (to be honest expected months to get a date) first available was the following week. So decided to throw it in and fix what it failed on. Ok i did spend a week putting the engine back in replacing a crushed fuel line and adding warning icons to dash tel-tails and brake fluid sticker oh and put on some spare wheels the tyres had perished on the old wheels.

So trailered it to the IVA (car has never been driven more that 10 feet) and told the inspector here is one for your "wall of shame".
I was expecting the worst and was shocked to only fail on 5 items 3 which could have been easily avoided...
(I feel so guilty as some people spend months prepping for IVA and still fail)

Stupid 3 fail items as i did not even check:-
The set wheel I fitted the night before were 16" with a different offset and they fouled the body work on the N/S rear and touched a wishbone on the O/F right. Had no sticker for the bias bar adjustment.

Next speedo was not reading had never tested it having never driven the car. Thought it did not like the re-calibration when i changed the tyre size but turned out to be a crushed cable it when refitting the gearbox during the week.

Last was mirrors so this is where i need some advice:-
The interior failed because on obstruction from body work it is mounted on a small 10cm stem off the dash and all it can see are the headrests and the roll-bar loops (have 3 loops like some MX5 or TT) I have raised the mirror up enough to clear the headrests and the middle loop but it can see the 2 outer loops and these are more than 15% obstructing (i feel the interior mirror is a non starter the stalk is already 20cm high and will vibrate like crazy)

So onto the external mirrors both failed because the rear wheel arch blocks the view of the lower test marks. I have raised them up on 14cm stalks and they look really stupid but i am lost as to how to position them to clear the body work. it was either raise them up or extend them out. They are mounted on the cockpit coaming that is 22cm inboard of the "outer edge of the vehicle" hence the reason to go up rather than out.
So a question/musing on obstruction rule is this taken as 10% / 15% of the "fitted" reflective surface or from the dimension requirement 70mm x 40mm I.E if one fitted a truck mirror that was 20% obstructed would this be ok as the offered view would be much greater than say a 5% obstructed motorcycle mirror.

oh well retest on Friday will soon find out

you don't have to have a central mirror if it doesn't help your view

quote:

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Note 3: The interior mirror must be positioned as far as is practical to afford the best possible view to the rear, if the interior rear-view mirror does not provide any rearward vision its presence shall not be required.

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Pics would help I think.
And if the rear view mirror can be practicibly positioned so that it can achieve a view to the rear then the above get out isnt applicable. Just because it doesn't where its currently positioned isnt enough to get out of its requirement.

quote:

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Originally posted by loggyboy
Pics would help I think.
And if the rear view mirror can be practicibly positioned so that it can achieve a view to the rear then the above get out isnt applicable. Just because it doesn't where its currently positioned isnt enough to get out of its requirement.

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Ok now that photobucket is dead having issues posting images..
tried dropbox / google pictures / imgur this morning nothing will show the image just the link...

post pictures directly to the forum, uploads with unique names and files sizes of less than 300kb I think.

Ok uploaded to the archive see if this works...

This was the old view from the internal mirror

internal mirror old view

Here it is raised up on the new stalk

stalk height
as you can see the stalk is fairly tall but still the rollbars obscure the view...

new view
I would think the stalk would have to be 40cm off the dash to give an un-obstructed view to the rear

height required

Should i raise it up to this level?

Here was the view from the O/S mirror Image is edited but the bodywork blocks the lower mark

offside mirror view

Here are the stalks to raise the mirror high enough maybe to see the marks...


side stalks

so what are the facts with cameras?
do they need to be active the whole time or just when reverse is engaged?

Ok am I interpreting the manual incorrectly?

2. An interior mirror must be fitted, (see Note 3)
Note 3: The interior mirror must be positioned as far as is practical to afford the best possible view to the rear, if the interior rear-view mirror does not provide any rearward vision its presence shall not be required.

So I read this as it must have a rear view mirror because even though it is obstructed it does provide some rearward vision.
but then later on is states:-

Annex 1: Mirror Field of View Check
With a pole positioned vertically at the floor marking 3 in respect of the offside exterior mirror; 4 in
respect of the interior mirror; and where required, (see note 3)

The longitudinal centre line of the vehicle positioned along line ‘b’; check that the section of pole 4
between the upper (“mirror dimension”) marker and the lower marker, and the whole of the horizontal
line formed between poles 2, 4 and 6 is visible in the interior mirror (see notes 1, 2 & 3).
The nearside extreme outer edge of the vehicle (where required) positioned along line ‘c’; check that
the section of pole 5 between the upper (“mirror dimension”) marker and the lower marker, and the
whole of the horizontal line formed between poles 5 and 7 is visible in the nearside exterior mirror (see
notes 1, 2 & 3);

NOTE 2: Obstruction by the vehicle’s bodywork and other components fitted to the
vehicle in the case of an interior mirror of 15% and in the case of an exterior mirror 10%
is permitted
NOTE 3: If an interior mirror does not provide the required field of view, a nearside
exterior mirror meeting the appropriate field of view requirement must be fitted.

I read this as my interior mirror will not provide the appropriate field of view then i need a nearside mirror.
Am i missing the point here?

But what concerns me with putting things on stalks is:-
6. Obligatory mirrors/camera systems must be mounted so as to prevent the
driver misinterpreting the image because of vibration

[Edited on 19/8/17 by ArAKern]

Well After 2 canceled retests tests managed to get a pass. :-)

Just for reference Cameras are not acceptable....

o/

quote:

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Originally posted by ArAKern
Well After 2 canceled retests tests managed to get a pass. :-)

Just for reference Cameras are not acceptable....

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quote:

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Originally posted by ArAKern
Well After 2 canceled retests tests managed to get a pass. :-)

Just for reference Cameras are not acceptable....

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Well Done LoggyBoy for getting the clarification.

So I was totally correct in my initial assumption


Just for reference I did not use a £30 cheepy reversing camera of ebay.

It was a Sony CCD effio-v (I use them for diy nightvision and FPV), I spent some time playing with different lenses
to get the best FOV (Field of View). if the fov is too wide you will see lots of distortion to narrow and you will not meet the requirements and magnification becomes an issue.

The biggest compromise was the screen as I had limited space to mount it (did not fancy building a custom mount just for the test)
so ended up using a 5" with fairly low resolution in my opinion is was "just" good enough for the test would have much preferred a 7" -10" display...

If I was to do it again for real and as a total mirror replacement would go for full HD 1080p camera (minimum 720p) along with a 7" full HD screen must be daylight view able high lux rating or one with a sun shield.

quote:

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Originally posted by ArAKern
Well After 2 canceled retests tests managed to get a pass. :-)

Just for reference Cameras are not acceptable....

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Ok I will try and give my assumptions and my impression of what the inspector looked for.
In short he did not even check/test the interior rear view mirror
The two offside mirrors gave the required field of view. (he did not even realign the car to do the nearside mirror test side test )

like everything in the manual it is down to the inspectors "interpretation" on the day....

I left my central mirror fitted raised up on a 20cm stalk it vibrated like crazy on the drive down and no way was practical but it was a belt an braces approach. (this was the only section of manual I had issues with as it contradicts its self)


Just for reference he is how i read the section with some tongue in cheek comments.

2. An interior mirror must be fitted, (see Note 3)
Note 3: The interior mirror must be positioned as far as is practical to afford the best possible view to the rear, if the interior rear-view mirror does not provide ANY rearward vision its presence shall not be required.
because of the "any" wording I "must have a interior mirror" in hindsight with an open top car do we really have an "interior" my central mirror was definitely exterior to the car

but then later on in that section...
Annex 1: Mirror Field of View Check
NOTE 2: Obstruction by the vehicle’s bodywork and other components fitted to the vehicle in the case of an interior mirror of 15% is permitted
So the mirror I must have will fail because over 15% was obstructed by the roll bars. option fit a huge truck mirror to reduce obstructed percentage.

but hang on is about to get confusing
NOTE 3: If an interior mirror does not provide the required field of view, a nearside exterior mirror meeting the appropriate field of view requirement must be fitted.
But in my case my interior mirror met the requirements of the test! but would still fail because of note 2 15% obstruction so we are in a no win situation.. with our "must have" internal mirror! I would hope all inspectors would take the "reasonable man" or logical approach of you just need a near side mirror and do away with the internal.

Good luck with your interpenetration and IVA

But this was on a retest, yeah? In which case, he is supposed to specifically check the stuff that failed first time.

I've already passed my IVA and I failed first time. My bloke also didn't check my center mirror - I only ask because I'm also replying in another thread about the need for a center mirror.

So your retester wasnt as dedicated as your first tester?

On the actual test it failed on the offside mirror first because the lower mark was obscured. The inspector moved on and did not test the center or nearside as it was mounted in the same location as offside.
He did mention the the vision of the central mirror was obscured by the role bars.

To be honest I had a very relaxed test the inspector was super fair we had already discussed the car had failed the test before the mirrors were checked.