No, I'm not asking for advice personally. I am pressing ahead with my own plans, I realise I can't choose to go back 5 years or wait til
times get better...
But I do think about this stuff, and I wondered whether anyone else would think that this would make a good conversation topic.
I must admit to being surprised that this topic doesn't come up more often. Most everybody here is interested in building cars, and in the design
and engineering aspects, plus I know some of us at least are having career problems.
I suppose the drawbacks to starting a kit car manufacturing business would be the outlay that would be required, the time spent not earning while a
prototype was being developed, the worry that the car might not be popular, and that the general economic situation was unfavourable.
Dealing with the last problem first, my feeling is that the economic situation is a problem anyway. One might say "best to stick to supplying
stuff that people need, rather than (what some might see as ) toys for big boys".
Thing is, though, the market for necessities is already very well supplied by people who are well established.
Anyway, if anyone has any thoughts they might like to put forward on this subject, I would be interested to hear them
John
never is a good time !
its all about making money to survive and pay your bills at the end of the day .
need to be at the top of the game to achieve that .
ive got some ideas about how i could redo what i started with , in fact i know i should have done something different with my plans !
John,
If i were looking to start the manufacture and sale of a kit, i would try and design something in my spare time (or allocated business time) in an
attempt to remove the lack of earning whilst prototyping. I know this isnt always as easy as it sounds, and some people like you say, are struggling
already.
The current state of affairs with Mr Browns 10 years of negligence and mis-management, is (we hope) temporary, and will eventually take an upturn,
which is when you want the prototyping to be finished, and ready to sell as a kit.
People dont have a great deal to spend on toys at the moment (in general), and i personally would ait until the economy takes a rise.
The other consideration of course, is you now need a bulletproof business plan o get any financial support from a bank or lender as a result of the
above, so manufacturing costs would be increasingly negative which of course poses a huge risk in itself. Another good reason to crack on and perfect
a prototype, then flash it around to see what people think BEFORE commencing manufacture.
Just a few of my views, hope it helps anyone looking to make this decision.
I think that no matter how bad things are people still need a 'release' to keep sane. Yes obviously some will not be able to afford to
continue building but there are also alot that will and new people coming in to the scene.
Every time the shares rise and fall as they do each day, somebody makes a lot of money. So not all people are suffering.
I think, like everything, people may buy a cheaper alternative and may buy a bit at a time rather than a full kit, but they will still continue to
pursue the hobby.
Steve
A few reasons why I would not start up this type of business.
now might be a good time to accumulate tools and bits that sadly someone going out of business is getting rid of,,as said above,run it as a
"hobby" till it can take off and earn you enough to make a profit and live on.i think the future is midi btw
I'd say that the over-riding factor is is the product.
The right thing will always sell, finding the right product is where the skill (and luck) comes in.
There's a reason that most new kit car companies start out with a seven-a-like at first.
Sevens are popular and simple to build, no doors or curved glass. These companies live and die by price and customer service.
At the opposite end are well funded replicas (in the loosest sense, I'd include people like Ultima in this) These are quality products with a
consequently high price and these companies used to "graduate" to production car status but that is more difficult these days.
Although there's more money involved initially the top end kits are probably a better risk financially. The well heeled are a better customer
base than we humans. These companies trade on their name and reputation.
In between? Things like the Murtaya or the Aeon, inovative and forward looking they need to present a genuine alternative to the likes of the MR2 or
MX5.
Overall I think it's going to be difficult for a while but I think there are untapped niches which the canny company might exploit, but I'm
keeping those to myself!
Cheers
Chris 
Some very interesting responses so far.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned so far (probably because it's bleeding obvious) is the importance of keeping costs down. My own
workshop is on a nearby farm, the rent is very reasonable and I can make as much noise as I want, plus I can receive visitors and delivery lorries
without getting unwanted attention and annoying the neighbours.
As CRK, I also believe that the future is Midi, and that's the direction I am going in, and like Chrisg I think the product itself os what really
matters, and that there are indeed a few niches left out there.
John
Well I guess I fill one of those niches.
I've been running the Furore business part time for the last couple of years.
It has taken far longer to come to fruition largely due to the incompetence of suppliers (one chassis manufacturer in particular who used to frequent
this forum, tho' not heard anything of him for some time) & I am very glad that I have not been relying on this for an income as it has
recorded substantial losses for both of the last 2 years, (useful for keeping the tax bill down but not for feeding the family)I will record a profit
this year but largely due to Ebay/parts sales rather than sales of vehicles. That said I have sold 3 chassis kits & one full set of bodywork &
have just refused a deposit from a very keen customer until I get some supply wrinkles (with the chassis) ironed out. John, I still hope to have some
work for you shortly if you're still interested!
All this without placing any advertising or taking a stand at a show - presumably something about the car must be right albeit it is a bit like
Marmite.
I would suggest there is never a right or wrong time in respect of global events rather is the market ready for a particular product. Good luck to
anyone starting a business at any time - it is not as easy as some people seem to think, but not hard to keep people happy if you do your job
properly.
No time is the right time to start especially with all the rules and regs this country inflicts on those trying to better themselves!!
I had a visit from environmental health bods after someone complained about smell, now the bloke walked in right passed what we do then
asked..."what do you do and what materials do you use"...this country is buggered and run by complete and utter knobheads!!!!!
I've been helping my son-in-law start up his small retail business this year. Still doing the books!
Starting a new manufacturing business involves a whole raft of rules and regs, some of which have already been mentioned above.
Gotta say that whoever plans to go for this type of business, (i.e. making & selling kits), make a careful survey of the existing market for kits.
Then, using data from your survey, carry out the classic business SWOT analysis.
S - Strengths; W - weaknesses; O - opportunities; T - threats.
Unless you product will be unique, either in quality or design, your competitors will be the most likely threat, closely followed by your suppliers,
(how reliable are they?), and probably, your bank manager!
Don't forget to organise an experienced accountant; he'll be worth it, in the longer term.
Yes, I have thought long and hard about turning my 'hobby' into a business. I believe it's the fear of failure, putting all my savings
into something that may not actually pay the rental of an industrial unit, let alone insurance and all the enviro bollocks. My savings would be
gone.
I've just been made redundant (no payout the Company went bust), money isn't therefore a renewable resource via other means (there are no
available Pharma/manufacturing/discovery jobs in the UK). So, there you go, fear.
I've had a huge success over the last two years Sprinting my GSXR750/1000 powered Westfields (try youtube - videos by wageslaveracing). Also
pistonheads
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/755839.htm
A couple of people have asked if I could do the same for them (re-engineer for alternative (or) bike power). Problem is, when I cost out what I'd
have to charge (as a perfectionist) I can't see it being commercially viable.
As for the kit thing, I've had a relationship with a few Clan Crusaders (+Irish) in my time, I'd like to think a BEC-powered Clan middie
would be great. I've already got the front half clamshell mould which I made - since I kept understeering the Imp powered thing into circuit
furniture. My God though, I just can't see the cost.
Components - I guess a safe place to start. Whether the heady smell of styrene and mess of GRP or epoxy and carbon. I've made a few Clan body
parts as afavour to a few friends, a few Westfield-type wide arches for others and special seats to boot, but as a business, hell - it doesn't
take long to realise the time/profit costs aren't too great again.
I guess lots of people are in this making kit-car/ bits debating arena. I take my hat off to those out there doing it, trying to make ends meet. I
can't see a safe way to do it, so I'm sending off my CV to International Pharma/Chemical companies in the hope that they're after a PhD
Chemist (some hope).
Meanwhile, if someone out there really does have a great idea and is looking for a partner.... I'll get out from here and see you over a pint.
Meanwhile, let me assure you, having your employer in Administration is a real shitty (and impoverising) way to end a career. If only
manufacturing/research was as heavily favoured as Banking.
OK, rant mode off.
I think part of the problem with trying to sell a new kit is that the average tintop/sports car has moved on in performance terms and their costs have dropped in real terms. If you go back ten years the cost of a Scubby/Cosworth etc was high so the cheap route to performance was thru building a kit. Now you can get serious performance for very little money on the secondhand market makes spending £10K+ on a LSIS which you can only use in the summer seem madness. I also see less and less young people working on their own cars as we used to, sure they mod them with bits of plastic being bolted on, but years ago everyone could service their cars as they were simple to work on...now we hear it you can't change a part without it being recoded by the local stealer. Get something that appeals to the next generation of kit builders and you might be onto something. The days of churning out crap looking designs just to be different I hope are behind us.
quote:
Originally posted by motorcycle_mayhem
Meanwhile, if someone out there really does have a great idea and is looking for a partner.... I'll get out from here and see you over a pint.
motorcycle mayhem .
you need to contact the insolvency service to claim your notice , maybe more .
i had to do that when robin basterd hood went tits up .
quote:
Originally posted by zetec
Now you can get serious performance for very little money on the secondhand market makes spending £10K+ on a LSIS which you can only use in the summer seem madness.
well fair play to any of you thinking of it. I'd love to do something that i love but .... i'm concious that i don't have the skills
and experience.
My personal 'love to see' would be a road legal 1960's single seater. Either bec or v6.
Keep thinking about it..... maybe one day i'll try making my own.
quote:
Originally posted by MakeEverything
The current state of affairs with Mr Browns 10 years of negligence and mis-management, is (we hope) temporary, and will eventually take an upturn, which is when you want the prototyping to be finished, and ready to sell as a kit.
Brown does have a lot to answer for - just most of it isn't very well publicised.
For example, he decided to sell off a lot of our gold reserves against the advice of the bank of england and 7 or 8 major banks brought in for
consultation.
As he pressed ahead they said "what ever you do, don't announce it as it will send the market into a spiral due to you flooding it". He
announced it.
We lost something like 2 billion pounds when he sold the gold compared to what it was worth the day before he announced it.
^^^ brillaint - so I am allowed to dislike him even more. 
quote:
Originally posted by MikeR
Brown does have a lot to answer for - just most of it isn't very well publicised.
For example, he decided to sell off a lot of our gold reserves against the advice of the bank of england and 7 or 8 major banks brought in for consultation.
As he pressed ahead they said "what ever you do, don't announce it as it will send the market into a spiral due to you flooding it". He announced it.
We lost something like 2 billion pounds when he sold the gold compared to what it was worth the day before he announced it.
quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
Much as I dislike that Scotch personage...
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
Much as I dislike that Scotch personage...
I beg your pardon?
Disappointed you felt the need to refer to his nationality whilst making disparaging comments about him. The inference being that the fact he is
Scottish is somehow linked to his shortcomings!
I'm not particularly fussed about the use of Scots / Scotch... that's up to the individual. Mind you - that mistake is normally down to
ignorance on the part of the 'user', but as you're admittedly aware of the difference between both words and how its interpreted by the
'Scots', then it's perhaps fair to assume you were further illustrating your point!
I appreciate that it's hard to convey wit (if that is how it was intended) on a typewritten forum... although 'smileys' do help!
But anyway, back onto the subject... Manufacturing a kit-car for the 'everday / all-weather' user???
Financial suicide in my humble opinion! If there was a market for this kind of product, then one of the 'big' manufacturers would have had
a determined 'go' at it. The fact they haven't speaks volumes! The only one that I can think of is the Midas and their success can
best be described as 'modest'?
Kit-cars to me are about one thing... 'bang for buck'! This is why the traditional Seven has been so successful - where else can you get
THAT performance for THAT financial outlay. Ergo, I suspect that most potential customers will regard their kit-cars as 'toys'.
If you want to make an 'everyday / all-weather' kitcar, then you will effectively be putting yourself head to head with Factory cars such as
Lotus, Vauxhall and TVR (in the form of EARLY Elises / VX220's / Tuscan's, etc.).
If I were to start a kit car business, then it would be heavily marketed on the 'bang for buck' premise, incorporating a hugely different
aesthetic to the traditional Seven-alike. I would forget any notion of trying to achieve 'everyday / all-weather' usability and try and
find a sensible halfway-house.
A lot of what Scootz said is right.
But to add, ...the biggest mistake that people make when coming into the kit industry, is thinking they are going to be part of the motor industry.
Put simply, this is very wrong thinking. I made this mistake myself, and learnt the reality very quickly. When the thinking was readdressed, then
things progressed very well.
The kit industry is part of the leisure industry. 99.9% of kit builders are doing so for recreation. They don't care if they can use it in the
rain and winter, in fact, they would much prefer not to get their 'pride and joy' wet or dirty at all.
Customer service is paramount, and priority no.1, no.2, no3, .....
Be prepared to spend most of your day on the phone talking to customers. I got my days' work done after 6.00pm, and even then the bloody phone
kept ringing!! (Things aren't much different now, just the content of the phone calls.)
If like me, it ends up a stepping stone to other and better things, then go ahead, but veeeery cautiously.
And learn to be very tolerant of stupid questions, and endless phone calls. 'How do I drill a hole in fibreglass? Was a regular question.
Cheers,
Syd.
[Edited on 27/10/08 by Syd Bridge]
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
Disappointed you felt the need to refer to his nationality whilst making disparaging comments about him. The inference being that the fact he is Scottish is somehow linked to his shortcomings!
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
But anyway, back onto the subject... Manufacturing a kit-car for the 'everday / all-weather' user???
Financial suicide in my humble opinion! If there was a market for this kind of product, then one of the 'big' manufacturers would have had a determined 'go' at it. .
Sorry John - your 'parliamentary' posting seems incredibly naive... either that, or as I suspect, you are indulging in a bit of
'baiting' by making reference to the 'English' parliament! Can never tell with your posts! Anyhoo... don't want to hijack
your post with my grumping, so will just agree to disagree.
Right... back to cars!
Can you tell us more about your (project) thinking. Not looking for a full design brief - just a general description of what you envisage producing.
Would make it a whole lot easier to pass comment on.
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
Sorry John - your 'parliamentary' posting seems incredibly naive... either that, or as I suspect, you are indulging in a bit of 'baiting' by making reference to the 'English' parliament! Can never tell with your posts! Anyhoo... don't want to hijack your post with my grumping, so will just agree to disagree.
Right... back to cars!
Can you tell us more about your (project) thinking. Not looking for a full design brief - just a general description of what you envisage producing. Would make it a whole lot easier to pass comment on.
You missed out the Assembly in NI...
Of course it's absurd that Scot's, Welsh, etc. MP's should have a vote on predominantly English matters. Don't think for a second
that most Scot's people wouldn't agree with that - we also think it's stupid!
You forget that the devolved Governments were set-up as the 'locals' had had enough of being controlled by a London-biased Government and
made a noise about it.
You want an English Parliament? No problem - a perfectly acceptable proposition, but it's up to you and your fellow Englishmen/women to make the
necessary noise to achieve it. Bleating about the Scot's, Welsh, etc. will get you nowhere!
Back to the point in hand... you asked the question 'is now a good time to start a kit manufacturing business'?
Well, unless you KNOW you have a dead-cert winner on your hands and can self-finance, then the answer is a resounding NO! We are entering recession
for goodness sakes - the banks will not want to know!
I think the reason there is a Scottish Parliament in the first place is that people are tired of being told what to do by the English - even if it
were not true, this is perception. But it all gets out of hand before you know it, so be careful. Remember, I live in Quebec, where it is truly out of
hand, so much so that one of the major federal political parties is a separatist organisation that wouldn't want a part of the government if it
were handed to them (except the pensions, they'd keep that).
Back to the question: what's wrong with making/buying a hood for the 7? Doesn't cost much and keeps some of the rain out, much like any
60's era English sport car. Would people pay 25,000 for an all weather kit car, because that's what it would cost? I suppose there is the
Ultima and the like already being produced.
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
Back to the point in hand... you asked the question 'is now a good time to start a kit manufacturing business'?
Well, unless you KNOW you have a dead-cert winner on your hands and can self-finance, then the answer is a resounding NO! We are entering recession for goodness sakes - the banks will not want to know!
Well, good luck to you. Keep us posted on your progress.