daniel mason
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| posted on 24/3/09 at 09:10 PM |
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2 forms of immobilisation?
will having an ignition key, starter button and a removeable quick release wheel be adequate as 2 forms of immobilisation? the wheel has kliktrontic
gear change on it so it would be impossible to drive without it!
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mad-butcher
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| posted on 24/3/09 at 09:16 PM |
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as far as i can recall sierra steering lock counts as 1 sierra ignition switch as 2 but I had an fia type master switch mounted under bonnet
tony
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mistergrumpy
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| posted on 24/3/09 at 09:16 PM |
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The ignition key will be. Not sure about the starter button though. If someone could correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure you can't
have a quick release wheel for SVA?
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daniel mason
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| posted on 24/3/09 at 09:22 PM |
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its actually an fia style switch but it is used to start the car and is in reach of drivers seat. why can a quick release wheel not be used?
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mistergrumpy
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| posted on 24/3/09 at 09:24 PM |
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The FIA switch counts as one yes, I know that from Gavs SVA. The removable wheel is not favoured as it is removable and could be taken off whilst
driving. I think that's the reason. If you do a search I'm sure you'll find loads.
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daniel mason
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| posted on 24/3/09 at 09:27 PM |
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if thats the case im in big trouble.my sva is next thursday and my eletronic gear change is built into the wheel on 2 red buttons! thanks mate i will
have to check it out
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adithorp
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| posted on 24/3/09 at 09:32 PM |
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People have passed and some failed with removable wheels; Depends upon the tester. Either put in a hidden switch or better still an immobiliser.
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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adithorp
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| posted on 24/3/09 at 09:36 PM |
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FIA switch isnt' always excepted for security as the keys are all the same.
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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austin man
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| posted on 24/3/09 at 09:51 PM |
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is ther no way you can make the wheel appear to be none removable ?
I had only the sierra ignition and standard steering lock passed with no problems
Life is like a bowl of fruit, funny how all the weird looking ones are left alone
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Staple balls
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| posted on 24/3/09 at 09:54 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mistergrumpy
The FIA switch counts as one yes, I know that from Gavs SVA. The removable wheel is not favoured as it is removable and could be taken off whilst
driving. I think that's the reason. If you do a search I'm sure you'll find loads.
I seem to remember (years ago) people suggesting a lockable removable wheel adaptor, as that means it's not removable if it's locked on
while you're driving, but obviously, I dunno if that'd pass.
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bassett
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| posted on 24/3/09 at 09:59 PM |
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Ignition key and a cut off switch under the bonnet.
My MNR Blog Updated Jan 2010 - Track Day Prep Begins!
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chrisg
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| posted on 24/3/09 at 10:35 PM |
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I've seen removable wheels with the squeeze collar type hub locked by drilling and tapping set screws in from underneath. (which stops you
squeezing the collars together). This counts as permanent as you need tools to remove it. Of course if the set screws were to fall out then the
wheel would become removable again.....
I think you might have more problems with the wheel. Some testers have been insisting on a type approved wheel, which means a production car item.
This isn't what the book says but, as ever with VOSA, a lot depends on whether the tester got his leg over etc...
Assuming that you can use the fitted wheel, does it pass the radius/padding point of view?
Cheers
Chris
Note to all: I really don't know when to leave well alone. I tried to get clever with the mods, then when they gave me a lifeline to see the
error of my ways, I tried to incite more trouble via u2u. So now I'm banned, never to return again. They should have done it years ago!
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iiyama
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| posted on 25/3/09 at 07:59 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by andys101
A removable steering wheel isn't acceptable as an anti theft system.
Andy.
Not true bud, sorry!
Just gone through SVA with a removable wheel as the second form of anti theft and it was accepted. Mine is lockable as its a Mountney item.
If its broke, fix it. If it aint broke, take it apart and find out how it works!
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mr henderson
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| posted on 25/3/09 at 08:19 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by iiyama
quote:
Originally posted by andys101
A removable steering wheel isn't acceptable as an anti theft system.
Andy.
Not true bud, sorry!
Just gone through SVA with a removable wheel as the second form of anti theft and it was accepted. Mine is lockable as its a Mountney item.
The point that Chris made is that there is a degree of variation with VOSA, so just because something is OK on one day at one place doesn't
actually make it 'true'
John
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DarrenW
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| posted on 25/3/09 at 08:46 AM |
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3 years ago at Gosforth i was told if i had removeable wheel of any description i would be failed.
Passed with an ignition key on dash and a Cat 2 immobiliser. I had removed the steering lock and ignition barrel from the upper column bearing
housing.
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iiyama
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| posted on 25/3/09 at 08:57 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
quote:
Originally posted by iiyama
quote:
Originally posted by andys101
A removable steering wheel isn't acceptable as an anti theft system.
Andy.
Not true bud, sorry!
Just gone through SVA with a removable wheel as the second form of anti theft and it was accepted. Mine is lockable as its a Mountney item.
The point that Chris made is that there is a degree of variation with VOSA, so just because something is OK on one day at one place doesn't
actually make it 'true'
John
Have no argument with your statement John but Im not sure that anyone, (including myself!), should put a post up that states something is out and out
fact when it isnt.
Perhaps I should have been a little more succinct, (sp?), and I think your post is probably better put then mine! 
Got no problem with Chris' post either. And to back you both up I have read of people having problems with Hayabusa clocks come SVA and yet my
dash went through without a murmour from SVA man!
[Edited on 25/3/09 by iiyama]
If its broke, fix it. If it aint broke, take it apart and find out how it works!
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Schrodinger
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| posted on 25/3/09 at 11:26 AM |
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IIRC the steering wheel boss needs to be colapsable and from what I have seen none of the removable bosses are so that would be a fail.
Keith
Aviemore
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iiyama
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| posted on 25/3/09 at 11:46 AM |
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The Removable wheel system I have bolts onto a Momo collapsible boss.
If its broke, fix it. If it aint broke, take it apart and find out how it works!
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DarrenW
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| posted on 25/3/09 at 12:21 PM |
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Hey up andys101. You seem to be more knowledgable than most, good to get some wisdom.
It doesnt surprise me that there are so many different interpretations. I had no issue with the advice i was given ref removeable wheels. In the end i
fitted a SWM aftermarket wheel and MOMO collapsable boss to get through SVA. Obviously after discussion with my tester and ensuring the wheel
conformed to radii etc. Having had the pleasure of working for a steering system manufacturer it often amazes me how some removeable wheel bosses are
ever allowed to be used. The generic concept is a bit iffy anyway for road use imho. Ive seen what the OE's have to go through to get a system
approved hence why i even cringe at the thought of modifying intermediate shafts (i had a mate who was nearly sacked after a modified system was
modelled by very senior development specialists with years of experience and failed on a test track).
If in doubt go for type approved system. Should be no questions then.
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chrisg
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| posted on 25/3/09 at 01:17 PM |
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I think the point is that there is no consistancy amongst the test stations or individual testers.
Even looking through this thread that much is obvious.
Through the club I have personally seen the following:-
A car pass with a removable after market steering wheel, which was counted as one of the anti theft devices.
A car with the same set up where the steering wheel was not accepted as an anti theft feature but passed.
A car with a removable steering wheel that failed because of it.
A car with a wheel which was fixed and met the radius/padding guidlines because, and I quote, "It's got to be a production car
wheel"
I don't think anyone is trying to "dodge" the regulations but it is difficult to build a car to a standard that is anything but
"standard".
The situation is about to get worse with the move to IVA as VOSA begin to test cars to a standard that hasn't even being published!
How are you supposed to hit a moving target?
Andys101
I would guess from your profile that you are a tester, have you any comment to make, or even better, could you get VOSA to comment, on the two
issues?
1.The inconsistancies in the steering wheel issues.
2. Testing vehicles to a standard which as yet has not been finalised (or may have been finalised but not published to builders).
Cheers
Chris
Note to all: I really don't know when to leave well alone. I tried to get clever with the mods, then when they gave me a lifeline to see the
error of my ways, I tried to incite more trouble via u2u. So now I'm banned, never to return again. They should have done it years ago!
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iiyama
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| posted on 25/3/09 at 02:07 PM |
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^^^^
Nicely put sir! I dont think anyone wants to persecute anyone else because of what they do for a living buf I absolutly agree that some of the VOSA
rules are far to open to interpretation by the tester.
MOT's also seem to be a case in point. Fail at one garage could be a pass at another.
If its broke, fix it. If it aint broke, take it apart and find out how it works!
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DarrenW
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| posted on 25/3/09 at 05:56 PM |
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Andy - you are a star and i for one applaud you for your comments.
I had my test done at Gosforth. I felt it was strict but extremely fair. As is your approach, me tester too was open in the discussion following the
first fail and i was given plenty of time to have a constructive and objective discussion so that i was totally clear what needed to be done to pass
second time around. Iam absolutely convinced that as a result of this i ended up with a good and well built car that was safe enough for me to take my
family out in. Cant say fairer than that can you?
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flak monkey
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| posted on 25/3/09 at 06:03 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
its actually an fia style switch but it is used to start the car and is in reach of drivers seat. why can a quick release wheel not be used?
This is a problem. You should not be able to activate the immobilisation from the drivers seat while the car is in motion. (Think steering lock - key
needs to be out before it will work). See 2)c)i in andys post!
For my SVA i had an ignition key and immobiliser which the SVA man was more than happy about.
David
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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chrisg
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| posted on 25/3/09 at 08:40 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by andys101
I couldnt possibly comment on another examiners decision.
I can advise that you are well within your right to appeal the decision "AT THE TIME OF THE TEST"
As I see it the manual is quite black and white in certain areas protective steering being one of them.
My opinion as given in this thread is backed up by the inspection manual.
If a presenter is not happy with one of my decisions I WHOLE HEARTEDLY want you to question that decision.
No one leaves my test station in any doubt of the required standard, I will identify every failure item and explain the required standard, I wont tell
you how to fix it just what it should be like when its fixed.
Ref IVA manuals - by the 29th April the standards will be finalised.
I hope you all find this information usefull.
Andy.
I'm certainly not having a go at the testers, all the ones I have met have been proffessional and helpful.
I see this inconsistancy as a failure of the literature.
The standard should be absolutely clear and unaquivical, without any grey areas. The fact that no one really knows what the official position is would
discourage any appeal, you couldn't be certain if you were right.
It's clear that the regulations are not as absolute as they should be, otherwise every tester would apply them in the same way.
It's good that the IVA regs will be sorted by the end of April but I think they should have been published at least six months before the test
was introduced.
Cheers
Chris
Note to all: I really don't know when to leave well alone. I tried to get clever with the mods, then when they gave me a lifeline to see the
error of my ways, I tried to incite more trouble via u2u. So now I'm banned, never to return again. They should have done it years ago!
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DarrenW
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| posted on 26/3/09 at 09:15 AM |
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I agree that in an ideal world the book and test would be devoid of any ambiguity and applied in exasctly the same way at all test centres.
Unfortunately we dont live in an ideal World. If we take the SVA as applied to Kit Cars (just to remove the variable of other cars being tested), it
is rare for 2 identical cars to be built by one person. All the cars are subtly different and have followed differing build routes and processes. If
it was me who had the task of writing an unambiguoaus manual to cover all eventualities, id probs decline the kind offer and go and solve world
hunger. Ref SVA - i would simply suggest that a system of suggestions and evolution is employed (as is probably the case now).
I really dont see how we can ever get to a position where everything is applied equally. Unless of course;
1. Kit cars were outlawed, or,
2. The rules were so rigid that only a handful of variations were allowed and we all had to build state regulation vehicles.
Nobody wants either of those so for now we should accept that the world is a varied and interesting place and just take each test on its own merits
and do what is needed to be awarded the MAC. IMO oppinion the testers do a great job and have to deal with some pretty awkward and emotive people at
times that are apprehensive about their pride and joy being scrutinised. As is often the case i was rewarded with good suggestions and help after the
test by inquiring in a professional and objective manner.
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