owelly
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| posted on 30/11/10 at 11:21 AM |
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Passing 'Road Closed' signs.
Here's the thing.....
my journey to work involves driving over the A169 from Whitby to Pickering over the moors road to my place of work in the powerstation of a remote
radar station. The outgoing shift cannot leave until I get there and if the powerstation stops generating, a big lump of the globe is without any
ballistic missile early warning system. The Americans and RAF on site get all jumpy. Not so much about the lack of radar cover, but because without
the powerstation running, they can't make coffee and tea.
There's a big hill onto the moors that gets effected by the snow at the drop of a snowmans hat, and the exposed bits of the road soon fill up
with snow however, I've never missed a shift in the 21 years I've worked there due to having the right vehicle and the right tyres.
But I often have to drive past a 'Road Closed' sign at the bottom of the big hill. The sign lives behind a wall and as the snowploughs
head up the hill, the flourescent man jumps out and pulls the sign across the road, irrespective of what the weather is like further up the road. The
sign can stay there for days or weeks!
The MOD Plod at work have stated that as far as they are concerned, it is an offence to pass the Road Closed sign but they would not report anyone for
the offence if they were 'essential staff making a sensible attempt to get to work'. I asked a traffic copper a few years ago and he said
that as far as he was concerned, it was not breaking the law to pass the sign because who is to say it was there when you drove past it or if it was
covered in snow or blocked by another vehicle. Our Health and Safety guy says he has spoken to some geezer in the Police HQ and he says that anyone
who passes the road closed sign is committing an offence and their insurance will be void if they have an accident but wouldn't confirm this
with a signed memo.
What I want to know, to put this to bed once and for all, is: does anyone know what the correct answer is? I don't want the usual interweb
experts telling me that 'my mate Cedric once had a dog lead that was used my a proper dog handler and he says it's OK' (no
disrespect to Cedric, his dog or his mate) but if anyone knows where to find the exact piece of law then that would be great. It would give me lots of
days off work or lots of overtime when I get stuck there!
Cheers, folks.
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
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tony-devon
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| posted on 30/11/10 at 11:30 AM |
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is the road closed sign in the highway code?
if it is then surely its a legal sign and your obliged to obey.
I cant find it in there,
personally I would treat it as information, not an order and to be acted upon sensibly by the driver
halfway down the page
http://www3.hants.gov.uk/roads/highway-information/road-closures/frequently-asked-questions.htm
but on the other hand I thoguht that you had to obtain a road closure order to legally close a road?
[Edited on 30/11/10 by tony-devon]
this thread has lots of quotes of sections and law in it, might help you on your search
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=10&t=771344&mid=0&i=0&nmt=Road closed signs&mid=0
[Edited on 30/11/10 by tony-devon]
heavy is good, heavy is reliable, and if it breaks, hit them with it
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Bluemoon
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| posted on 30/11/10 at 11:41 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by tony-devon
is the road closed sign in the highway code?
if it is then surely its a legal sign and your obliged to obey.
I cant find it in there,
personally I would treat it as information, not an order and to be acted upon sensibly by the driver
halfway down the page
http://www3.hants.gov.uk/roads/highway-information/road-closures/frequently-asked-questions.htm
but on the other hand I thoguht that you had to obtain a road closure order to legally close a road?
[Edited on 30/11/10 by tony-devon]
this thread has lots of quotes of sections and law in it, might help you on your search
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=10&t=771344&mid=0&i=0&nmt=Road closed signs&mid=0
[Edited on 30/11/10 by tony-devon]
Highway code is just that a code, it's not the law.. So even if a stop sign is in the highway code is irrelevant.. Of cause you could commit and
offense if you break the code (i.e dangerous driving, by going though a no entry sign ect...)....
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marcjagman
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| posted on 30/11/10 at 11:57 AM |
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What you are supposed to do, if in doubt, is call the hioghways agency and ask them. They are legally obliged to give thier name too.
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RazMan
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| posted on 30/11/10 at 12:00 PM |
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Some signs are classed as 'advisory' and it isn't an offence to ignore them and they are only intended to be informing the road user
of a particular event or hazard - if the sign stated 'no entry' or similar it might be an endorceable offence
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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owelly
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| posted on 30/11/10 at 12:12 PM |
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Hmmmm.
The offence of failing to comply with a traffic sign is provided by Section 36 Road Traffic Act 1988
A 'Road Closed' sign is a permitted variant of a 7010.1 sign:
Regulation 10 of the TSRGD 2002 specifies the signs to which s.36 RTA 1988 applies - and 7010.1 is not listed.
This would tend to suggest that it is not an offence to contravene a 7010.1 'Road Closed' sign
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
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nick205
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| posted on 30/11/10 at 12:41 PM |
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What does your insurer say?
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BenB
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| posted on 30/11/10 at 12:52 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by nick205
What does your insurer say?
 ROTFL
I'd love to hear that phonecall. You'ld be more likely to get an answer on the legalities of passing a road closed sign by getting out the
Ouija board.
Or is that just my experience of insurance companies?
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mad4x4
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| posted on 30/11/10 at 01:02 PM |
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OT
I once tried to ask my insurace about tyres and load ratings and the looked at me like I was talking Greek (or any other language) I pointed out
that it would be them jumping on me for the wrong tyres if I had an acciedent. Evenyually I gave up got an answer from Landrover. Insurance know
Jack...
[Edited on 30/1111/10 by mad4x4]
Scot's do it better in Kilts.
MK INDY's Don't Self Centre Regardless of MK Setting !
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Davey D
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| posted on 30/11/10 at 01:05 PM |
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I cant see how ignoring a road sign will void your insurance?
If you failed to stop at a STOP sign, and then crashes into someone would your insurer not pay out to repair your car if you was fully comp? i doubt
it.
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mcerd1
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| posted on 30/11/10 at 01:14 PM |
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^^ I think you'd have a hard time getting any insurance to pay out for an accident on a closed road legal or not....
-
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a4gom
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| posted on 30/11/10 at 01:37 PM |
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I wouldn't be concerned, ( I won't be coming to court with you but) as far as I know a sign on it's own means nothing unless it is
backed by a traffic regulation order served under sections 14 or 15 of the Road Traffic Act, if this is the case there should be a copy of the signed
TRO available on the affected stretch of road, fixed to lamp posts etc.
If there is a police man stood at the side of it and he says the road is closed even if there is no TRO then I think ignoring him might get you in
trouble 
Andy
Perfect planning prevents pi$$ poor performance!
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owelly
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| posted on 30/11/10 at 01:42 PM |
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I road that is closed to traffic is still a 'public place' so the insurance shouldn't be a problem.
Another point worth noting: it's posdible to get onto the 'closed road' by going another way that joins the road just after the
sign.
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
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T66
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| posted on 30/11/10 at 02:06 PM |
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Drive past it, there are no Police in N/Yorks.....
The siting of road signs is often used to get folk off offences, if Joe the binman who works for the council puts the sign out on the road when he is
driving the gritter, it doesnt make it lawful. Temporary road closures are subject to much legislation involving notices in newspapers by the traffic
management people, and local signs before the alterations.
It is an advisory sign, which can be ignored at your peril. If you jump a red light and collide with another car and cause injury, your still insured.
So I think the YTS answered the phone on that one - bIFF!
Temporary speed limits with millions of cones and only four workmen, still have the speed signs out on a weekend when nobody is there/working. This
will be because the temporary limit still stands, having been advertised and signage displayed locally prior to reducing the limit.
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russbost
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| posted on 30/11/10 at 02:33 PM |
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I think you've just answered your own question - you obviously entered the Closed road from the other road you've just mentioned, if you
crash between the two you were obviously going TOWARDS the Stop sign not away from it!!
(despite the position of your vehicle appearing to contradict this!)
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Agriv8
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| posted on 30/11/10 at 02:47 PM |
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Nice bit of road that.
I would say if you are using the road for 'access' what about all the farmers that live on that bit of road.
I suspect it is more a case of stopping the 'Blue Rinse Tourists' with city cars and eco tyre's on.
Most of North Yorks Police are pritty switched on but each bobby would give a different answer none of which would be definative.
regards
Agriv8
Taller than your average Guy !
Management is like a tree of monkeys. - Those at the top look down and see a tree full of smiling faces. BUT Those at the bottom look up and see a
tree full of a*seholes .............
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franky
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| posted on 30/11/10 at 06:06 PM |
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Remember that the RAF plod carry less weight than their coffee stained shirts
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blakep82
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| posted on 30/11/10 at 08:00 PM |
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if a road is closed, isn't it normally 'except for access'? meaning for example if you live on that road, you can still drive home
obviously. not sure how its seen if you work on that road, i would imagine if you have a NEED to be on that road, its alright. obviously if theres
another (longer) route that you could take, then you should be using that. is your work actually on that road?
________________________
IVA manual link http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1081997083
don't write OT on a new thread title, you're creating the topic, everything you write is very much ON topic!
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JoelP
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| posted on 30/11/10 at 08:26 PM |
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a slight hijack
ive often wondered the same about the signs that say 'unsuitable for motor vehicles'. Its a public right of way, and i know my car drives
up and down it just fine!
Owelly, the only thing that would put me off driving up blue bank is the thought of having to drive back down it! There is no real chance of being
prosecuted for passing a sign, but i think it would be very hard to find a definate answer as to whether it is legal or not.
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indykid
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| posted on 30/11/10 at 09:30 PM |
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i know this is precisely the kind of reply you said you didn't want, but i once saw an episode of traffic wars of chopper coppers or something
of that ilk where they stopped a chap that was racing another down country roads and they both passed a road closed sign.
aside from the racing, they said passing a road closed sign was driving without due care and attention. they come up with all sorts on those programs
so who knows...
have you asked at your local police station?
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MikeR
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| posted on 30/11/10 at 10:34 PM |
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Why not ask a lawyer. Ok, it will cost, but he has to give you the legally correct answer. It means if you're ever stopped you can show you took
all reasonable precautions to make sure you didn't break the law. You can also go to your boss with a legal statement from a lawyer (for when
you want the overtime / extra time in holiday).
If you're found to then be guilty, you could sue the lawyer under the law society insurance protection scheme thingy and get some recompense.
Note - no idea if any of this is accurate, seems reasonable to consult a lawyer tho.
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stuleah
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| posted on 30/11/10 at 10:50 PM |
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A friend of mine recently drove down a road that was having roadworks done, the sign at the end said road closed except for access, so she carried on.
When she got to the roadworks they had cut away the left and right hand side of the road leaving a strip down the middle. She drove onto this part and
as she got further along it narrowed. The car basically fell off the right hand side of the road where they had cut it away and sent her into a
ditch.
The police were called, looked at the situation and road signs and advised her to seek legal action in taking the council to court as the road was not
passable although it said access only.
Getting back to your predicament and its relevance the police basically said if the sign says "road closed access only" you can legally go
through no matter where the access is at the other end, BUT if it says "Road closed" you are not allowed to pass.
I am no lawer so dont take that as gospel, but thats what she was told.
Personally i would wait until you see the sign behind the wall next time and hide it where they cannot find it. That way they couldnt put it out and
your problem is over.
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owelly
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| posted on 1/12/10 at 08:16 PM |
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Those signs are nice thick ally. Good for making sump gaurds. Probably.....
The MOD Plod have the same powers as 'normal' coppers when it comes to reporting you for an offence. Ours have speed guns and often
trundle up and down reporting folks for speeding. They also have machine guns and pistols they can point at you..... The RAF Police are there to issue
car passes......and drink tea.
I have relayed as much info as I can to the MOD Plod and the civvy police via my gaffer. The reply came back as 'it's illegal to pass a
road closed sign, but impossible to prosecute for the offence. You will not be reported for passing the sign'. Strangely, no-one is brave enough
to sign a document to that effect!
Cheers for the input folks.
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
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Rallye_Mark
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| posted on 1/12/10 at 09:01 PM |
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I think it would be the same as traffic cones that say "Police - No Parking" on them put out by Joe Public or in my case in point the
local church who think they own the whole bastard road! Seeing as the sign was put out by a worker and not a Police Officer I guess technically your
not breaking the law.
My Step Dad is a policeman and after talking to him about these cones he said "If the cones are not put out by an officer, they are not
valid". Also since its an access road I guess you'll be fine considering the nature of your work.
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