bambam
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 posted on 26/7/13 at 09:20 AM |
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Has anyone Experienced this?
Car: MK Indy
Engine: 1.8L K-series (non VVC, from an Elise, unmodified)
I don't want to turn this into another K-series debate - but here is what happened.
After warming up, accelerated onto a motorway (not using more than 4k revs)
Sudden massive HHIIIIISSSSSSSS - huge cloud of steam from the exhaust, pulled over immediately (before i got on the motorway) and turned off.
First thought was HG failure (as i'm sure everyone else's was)
few things made me question that diagnosis...
1. No oil Mayo (which could be explained away by it being a new engine (only done around 500 miles))
2. No previous overheating issues.
3. No Oil in the cooling system.
4. The sudden let-go.
So after a lot of googling, and talking to people who know, it sounded more like the inlet manifold gasket had gone (another common fault with the
plastic-plenum'd non VVC engines)
IMG was replaced - adding coolant back into the system - cylinders filled with water again..very quickly..
So the head is coming off and the HG is going to be replaced with the new MLS one.
Just curious if anyone has experienced a sudden HGF like that, or whether i am "special" haha
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chrism
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| posted on 26/7/13 at 09:51 AM |
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The head gasket can go in a spot that just lets coolant into the engine and not always include an oil path hence no oil in the coolant or mayo, as for
it just going maybe the head gasket was starting to fail but not showing any signs and then its got to the point where it blows from the pressure of
the cooling system.
If your replacing the head gasket I think it may also be worthwhile replacing another part at the bottom of the engine that the head bolts too, I
think its referred to as the oil rail/gallery but not sure. There was an article about it in Car Mechanics magazine a while ago and it was a
recommended upgrade when doing the headgasket since the long head bolts bolt into it but it is a sump off job.
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A little hard work never killed anyone, but why take the risk!
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Not Anumber
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| posted on 26/7/13 at 10:18 AM |
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Lets hope it's just the head gasket. Ive had two engines over the years where the water jacket leaked into the crankcase due to internal cracks
in the block. Very different engines too one being a Ford smallblack V8 from an early 80's Mustang and the other being a Fiat 1600 ohv.
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bambam
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| posted on 26/7/13 at 10:19 AM |
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Thanks Chrism,
when doing the HG there are numerous bits and pieces that are recommended to change - including but not limited to - all the gaskets, oil rail, water
pump, stretch bolts, locating dowels etc...
I think its first going to be a case of see if the HG is the problem...though i can't think of anything else it would be - hence the post..
Fingers crossed we find out it is just the HG!!
[Edited on 26/7/13 by bambam]
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 26/7/13 at 11:58 AM |
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I've only ever had sudden head gasket failures, zero warning and all hell breaks loose, a sure sign is if you take the radiator cap off and
water keeps bubbling out. My falcon when it let go was like a steam train from both ends
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minitici
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| posted on 26/7/13 at 12:38 PM |
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Could be inlet manifold O-ring gasket gone - letting coolant into inlet manifold.
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bambam
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| posted on 26/7/13 at 01:10 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by minitici
Could be inlet manifold O-ring gasket gone - letting coolant into inlet manifold.
thought this too - replaced the shoddy original one with a brand spanking new one, new studs and nut too, correctly torqued, and refilled the cooling
system - cylinders flooded quicker than i could pour water in practically!!
errr-ing on the side of sudden catastrophic HG failure right now - but we shall see what's what when we get the head off..
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britishtrident
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| posted on 26/7/13 at 03:54 PM |
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Yes sudden head gasket failure can occur it is usually caused by air-locking due to slow coolant loss.
If more than one cylinder filled ? that is very strange and not typical of head gasket failure
Which cylinders are filling with water if only #1 or #4 then it could point to an inlet manifold problem -- ie the manifold not the gasket.
The inlet manifolds can suffer problems with the brass inserts pulling free. If only #1 and/or #4 cylinders were affected look at the inlet
manifold again first.
With the inlet manifold to avoid the nuts becoming coil bound I always advise using very thick washers (I use galvanised washer from Wickes) and
spring washers and half-height nyloc nuts.
Don't assume the multi-layer head gasket is the best to use if the cylinder liner heights are not within spec for the Multi-layer Freelander
gasket then the original Payne gasket gives more leeway as it has wider tolerances for liner height.
You shouldn't need new head bolts just make sure the threads on the bolts are in good clean condition and when the head is off check they
screw down far enough into the block to clamp the head.
Also if the engine has the original style thermostat make sure the thermostat has been drilled (2 holes required 2mm to 2.5mm dia) the
thermostat O rings are in good condition and the M8 support bolts that hold the thermostat inlet tube to the cylinder block are fitted as these
are often ommitted.
You don't have a location showing and will probably be at the wrong end of the country but I have most 1.8 engine parts in the shed.
[Edited on 27/7/13 by britishtrident]
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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sonic
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| posted on 26/7/13 at 04:43 PM |
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I had a similar problem with the Wifes Freelander, she said it started running rough on startup and i got worse over a week or so, took it to a so
call Landrover specialist in Selby who said its the head gasket leaking it will be a grand thank you very much.
The head gasket was replaced with the multi layer type plus all the thermostat mods done etc about a year ago by Landrover under warrenty.
I took it home and had a look myself, two cylinders where getting water in, took the inlet manifold gasket off but no sign of damage, spoke to a chap
at Euro car parts who said the gasket will have been squashed / tightened to much when the head was done and it will start leaking, he sold me a nice
shiney green one for £2 and said i bet it solves the problem.
Went home fitted it in 15 mins, 10000 miles later no water problems at all. So that will be a £998 saving from not going to a Land rover trained
monkey ripping people off then.
This sounds silly but make sure the gasket is the green coloured one, it does make a differance apparantly.
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britishtrident
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| posted on 27/7/13 at 07:56 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by sonic
I had a similar problem with the Wifes Freelander, she said it started running rough on startup and i got worse over a week or so, took it to a so
call Landrover specialist in Selby who said its the head gasket leaking it will be a grand thank you very much.
The head gasket was replaced with the multi layer type plus all the thermostat mods done etc about a year ago by Landrover under warrenty.
I took it home and had a look myself, two cylinders where getting water in, took the inlet manifold gasket off but no sign of damage, spoke to a chap
at Euro car parts who said the gasket will have been squashed / tightened to much when the head was done and it will start leaking, he sold me a nice
shiney green one for £2 and said i bet it solves the problem.
Went home fitted it in 15 mins, 10000 miles later no water problems at all. So that will be a £998 saving from not going to a Land rover trained
monkey ripping people off then.
This sounds silly but make sure the gasket is the green coloured one, it does make a differance apparantly.
It never ceases to amaze me the prices so called specialists charge to fit K16 head gaskets, on Rover 25/45 models and the Freelander it only takes 2
hours for a basic head gasket change. The 75/ZT takes slightly longer because of slightly more restricted access.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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bambam
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| posted on 4/8/13 at 09:33 PM |
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ok so here is the update....
was on holiday hence the delay.
Turns out it has got nothing to do with the HG, IMG, or any other sort of gasket failing...
Turns out that before i bought it there was a rogue bolt that had found it's way inside the Cambelt cover...
Going roung the left hander onto the motorway made the bolt get picked up by the cambelt and thrown around a bit - nearly tearing the cambelt apart,
and causing it to skip...
finally tally of damage is
8 seriously crooked exhaust valves
1 ruined cambelt
4 cracked cylinder liners
all the gaskets were actually fine - including the HG...
repairs will be
new exhaust valves and sleeves, new gaskets all round, new cylinder liners and rings...
and while its all apart, probably some new cams, and dad happens to have an emerald ECU lying unused - sure he won't miss it :-p
will also be checking the head for warping of course, and sending it to DVA for the remap etc....
ho hum....
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minitici
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| posted on 5/8/13 at 07:02 AM |
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Ouch!
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bi22le
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| posted on 5/8/13 at 07:35 AM |
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Who would drop a bolt down near the cams and be able to sleep easy without having it back in their hand?
Track days ARE the best thing since sliced bread, until I get a supercharger that is!
Please read my ring story:
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/13/viewthread.php?tid=139152&page=1
Me doing a sub 56sec lap around Brands Indy. I need a geo set up! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHksfvIGB3I
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iank
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| posted on 5/8/13 at 10:31 AM |
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Would it not be cheaper to just get another engine?
--
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Anonymous
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bambam
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| posted on 5/8/13 at 10:55 AM |
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Having had a look around, and knowing that what i have is a nearly brand new engine, it will probably work out to about the same in terms of
cost...
taking into account the upgrades as well, it works out slightly cheaper to keep the existing one, as well as a little less hassle..
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britishtrident
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| posted on 5/8/13 at 12:26 PM |
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Throw the lot in the scrap bin , at least some of the the valve guides will be history like wise the inlet valves. As there is so much damage
there is also a good chance of a bent conrod or two.
All 1.8 K16 engines are same the only real difference between a 120ps and 140ps is cams and ecu settings and they are the same as the VVC
from the head gasket down. All K16 heads are the exactly same from the rare 1.1 to the 1.8 turbo except for detail changes to the cam belt
tensioner in 1999.
Provided car has been serviced K16 engines exhibit very little engine wear even aat 150,00 miles plus pick up a good 1.8 from a running Rover 75
do a compression test before you buy (should be 180psi but this depends on the gauge ) change the flywheel over and use this as your base for your
rebuild.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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bambam
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| posted on 5/8/13 at 12:42 PM |
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inlet valves are all ok, but yeah - the exhaust guides along with the valves will probably be replaced.
It is tempting to start fresh with a new engine, but at the end of the day the cheaper option is still (at the moment) to repair the damage, liners
come in at 160, and already got the gaskets etc along with the ECU.
75's are coming in at around 500 quid, and so far the repairs are coming in at around 200, an engine alone on ebay is coming in around 250, but
obviously that is a complete unknown as to whether it runs or not...
will know about the conrods later today one we get the pistons out..
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