John Bonnett
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| posted on 22/6/06 at 01:34 PM |
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Where have all the skills gone?
As a nation, we make very little now and with the passing of our manufacturing so too has gone our skills. We, as Special builders, along with Model
Engineers must in this country, represent a significant proportion of people with engineering skills; people who are able to make things. What price
would be put on these skills if we are ever unfortunate enough to be under siege. Just a thought. Anyone agree?
John
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joneh
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| posted on 22/6/06 at 01:40 PM |
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I agree. The cost of living in the UK has gone up so much now that its cheaper for our own profesionals to work in Spain / New Zealand / USA /
Australia etc. I blame Tony Blair! If didn't have family here I'd certainly bugger off somewhere warmer.
We now just import the required skills from other countries. Its started in the medical profesion: Doctors and nurses from Zimbabwe and Thailand.
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TPG
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| posted on 22/6/06 at 01:42 PM |
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I agree.As a country nothing is done with eyes on the future.The long view is 3 yrs.Most companies plan over 3yrs for a return hence no real
investment in staff.The odd course here and there,nothing solid and recognised.
Apprenticships have gone for this reason.During my time in work it has got harder to find proper "Timeserved" people.
Aus/Nz/Canada also have the same skill shortage and are advertising world wide to attract and sort out the problem(Thats why i'm off.. ).
Here we just take on someone who claims to be able to have a go and then sue them if it goes wrong.
Or outsourse.
I'm 38 now with children & married.I feel I am not encourged to stay in my trade.I was once told during a meeting"You are pricing
yourselfes out of a job"."What price is quality and reliabliaty?" i asked...
[Edited on 22/6/06 by TPG]
..Which was nice..
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keith2lp
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| posted on 22/6/06 at 01:51 PM |
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Skills
I agree, the skills shortage is a major worry.
Last year I was looking to take on a toolmaker (CNC & Manual) . We had 6 apply and the youngest was 41, also had the same problem when trying to
employ a production engineer the youngest with any real idea was 38.
The problem is that no one trains young people anymore.
Keith
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 22/6/06 at 02:14 PM |
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I am a member of the Ipswich Model Engineering club - has about 60 members, but only about 10 of us younger than 65. Most of the oldies were
time-served engineers/machinists - so who's replaced them?
David
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smart51
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| posted on 22/6/06 at 03:14 PM |
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Why does it matter? (to put the other point of view) Foreign countries can make things much cheaper than we can and some say much better than we ever
could. Manufacturing is a laborious low wage industry that we can live without. Let us do more highly paid work and leave the pound-an-hour stuff to
someone else
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Hellfire
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| posted on 22/6/06 at 03:17 PM |
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I had a similar conversation today with a Production Manager at CORUS. He was asking whether I knew anybody who was apprentice (CNC) trained and
willing to move to CORUS for £15/hour. He had placed an Ad in the local press and only got 5 applicants! Some skilled CNC lads are earning in the
region of £20/hr depending upon skill base, so basically command their wage now. One of the applicants was 61 and looking for a part-time job in his
retirement as he couldn't afford to live on his pension alone...
On another note... one company I advise at recently duplicated a plant in China and now import semi-finished engine parts into the UK where we finish
them off and this then qualifies them as British! SCANDAL! It's cheaper to export the raw material ship it half way around the world machine it,
ship it back and finish it off. What effect is that having on the global temperature rise...
The world is going truly mad...
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awinter
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| posted on 22/6/06 at 03:25 PM |
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If you can't manufacture you own goods you rely on other countries doing this. They start off cheap, then the price starts to creap up. You
manufacturing infrastucture is gone and your shafted. We will become a service country hired out to the cheapest quote. The only niche thing we do is
reprocess nuclear waste!!
Also, nobody takes any pride in there work anymore. The sky man came to fit a sky dish, drilled a big hole in the wall. He did not have a dust sheet
luckily I have wooden floors other wise my carpet would have been orange.
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TPG
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| posted on 22/6/06 at 04:48 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by smart51
Why does it matter? (to put the other point of view) Foreign countries can make things much cheaper than we can and some say much better than we ever
could. Manufacturing is a laborious low wage industry that we can live without. Let us do more highly paid work and leave the pound-an-hour stuff to
someone else
Fair point and view.
As someone else said.They start cheap and once the wedge is in and we've no back up/skills/jobs left we are at a thrid parties mercy on supply
and price.
How sustainable are our other highly paid jobs when there are no other highly paid people to demard services from them?
..Which was nice..
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dblissett
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| posted on 22/6/06 at 04:51 PM |
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i started my working life as an apprentace tool maker 20 odd years ago unfortunatly due to the recesion in the early 80s i dident finish my final
year. so i dont claim to be a fully qualified engineer but in the last 10 years i have seen the standrds drop like a stone.
the new kids see engineers as a kind of grease monkey because they dont understand the basics
any of my mates who had anything between their ears got out of engineering years ago.
i keep being told i am out of touch and desgn is the way forward but how long is it before the chinese start designing there own products and we are
teaching them how to at our uni's
when we have sold all our ideas what will be left
[Edited on 22/6/06 by dblissett]
[Edited on 22/6/06 by dblissett]
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omega 24 v6
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| posted on 22/6/06 at 05:14 PM |
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Don't get me effing started Out of about 20 youngsters only 2 were ever of any good and they soon moved on to greener pastures.
You have to want to learn it's, what we do on here. We know the basics we know that if it doesn't look right then it probably is'nt.
We read technical books and glean what we need and the do the job. If in doubt we ask each other and usually from the responses we can tell whether
someone is going to be able to do it themselves. Health and safety dictates that no one can do a job unless they have been properly trained thus
killing flair and imagination ETC ETC ETC
ETC ETC ETCETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC
ETC ETC ETC
JUST DONT GET ME STARTED
Think "waves lapping on the shore" "birds singing in the spring" Ahh thats better NOW WHERE'S MY TEA
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clanger
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| posted on 22/6/06 at 05:50 PM |
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Employers have to take some of the blame I reckon. Due to recent circumstances I have had to take an unskilled job. I'm apprentice trained
machine tool fitter/turner (22yrs) with an arm-full of qualifications upto and including a 1st class engineering degree. I have been looking for
nearly 7months to get a skilled job which pays something decent comparable to what I can earn with this unskilled job I find myself doing, but
manufacturing is on its last legs in my region. I get really frustrated when employers want you to be this, that and the other, qualified up to the
hilt and then want to pay you £15K/year !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've applied for over 20 jobs in total, got interviewed twice, some companies do not even reply
Yet, if you look in any jobs supplement in any paper, just compare the wages for social workers / civil servants / pen-pushers who police after our
nanny state, its no wonder youngsters prefer that option. Rant over 
[Edited on 22/6/06 by clanger]
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 22/6/06 at 06:07 PM |
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Absolutely right. our manufacturing has gone and farming is following. What are the Government thinking about. Gas from Russia, oil from the Middle
East, meat from South America. I find it all too depressing to think about. The Ministry of No Fun has taken all the enjoyment out of motoring. Thank
goodness for motor racing and trackdays.
John
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smart51
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| posted on 22/6/06 at 06:11 PM |
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We use an Indian engineering contact firm to do some of our engineering. They have 20,000 professional engineers of all disciplines who work longer
hours than us for a fraction of the cost.
There are far more people in the far east whoare skilled and semiskilled technicians and labourers in their factorues than there are people in the UK.
They can found, assemble and deliver products for less than we can buy the materials.
We as a company are constantly being pushed on price. We just cannot compete with countries like China on cost and to be fair their manufacturing
skills are just as good. It is no good complaining that things now are not like the past. They just cannot be.
If we as a country are not willing to pay extra for home made goods, like Germany or France for example, then we are causing British manufacturing to
shrink. We must find something new to do.
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Mansfield
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| posted on 22/6/06 at 06:47 PM |
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The ONLY way us Engineers will ever be in demand again is if we have a war against the rest of the world.
Me: time served toolmaker, degree qualified Mechanical Engineer, hacked off with losing members of our department and finding them being with replaced
with accounts staff.
100 years ago we would have had respect.........
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DIY Si
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| posted on 22/6/06 at 07:30 PM |
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I'm not an engineer of any sort at all really. When I left school a mere 4 years ago, I wouldn't have had a clue how to use a spanner. Now
however, I'm having a decent (or so I think) crack at building my own car. Most people laugh at me, joking it'll never work,
wouldn't ever go near something you've built etc etc etc. I find this general attitude stupid. Most people just look at me funny and stare
in wonder at my foolishness. Part of the problem is the country is losing the can do attitude. It's being relaced with a "Is that really
safe?", "does the accountant say so?" or some other rubbish. Whilst I would like some qualifications, I'm happy just doing my
own thing (mostly) off my own back.
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smart51
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| posted on 22/6/06 at 07:48 PM |
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DIYsi. You seem to have a bit of an entreprnurial sptirit about you but if you had an idea, would you put your money where your mouth is, develop it
and take it to market, or would you play safe and just do your 9 to 5 job. It's the risk taking individuals that made this country 200 years
ago. The loss of that and the loss of our patriotic "buy British" attitude is what has damaged this country.
Engineers, myself included, don't just deserve respect, we need to earn it like everyone else. 200 years ago we went and did, as many
individuals and so as a nation, what no-one else was doing. We made industry. The developing world can do that cheaper than us now. what we need to
do is the same kind of thing again. From grass roots we need to start doing things again. The kit car and specialist car industry does just that.
too many people just spend their time watching coronation street and eating ready meals. WE need to sort ourselves out, rather than moaning that
THEY, whoever they are, aren't doing something for us.
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DIY Si
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| posted on 22/6/06 at 08:06 PM |
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If I had something worthy of being sold, and one day I might do, then yes I would go about it. It would probably take a while and I'd have to
work the 9-5 until I felt able to support me and swmbo. But then I'd go for it. I'd just have to persaude swmbo that it'd be
ok.....
Having said that, 200 years ago, going it alone and persauding people to fund your ideas was easier, I feel, than it is now. The world, like it or not
(and believe me I don't) is run by accountants. Back then things where a little simpler to improve upon, and funding could come from a wealthy
friend/family member etc. Many people have very good ideas, but to make them commercially viable you'd often need major manufacturing
capablilites or something only viable in large numbers, which most don't have access to, let alone the where withal to own.
[Edited on 22/6/06 by DIY Si]
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smart51
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| posted on 22/6/06 at 08:08 PM |
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I'd hope that I'd be that brave but I'm not sure I would be. Not on my own.
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DIY Si
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| posted on 22/6/06 at 08:13 PM |
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Oh, I'd be cheating. Me and one of my best men,possably 2 of them, would be joining forces on said idea. Hopefully.....
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02GF74
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| posted on 23/6/06 at 08:26 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by TPG
How sustainable are our other highly paid jobs when there are no other highly paid people to demard services from them?
well they're not; how many dentist/doctors have packed off and gone to the US or elsewhere? And what about all the outsourcing of IT work to
India?
Make me wonder what keeps this country going and what people do for a living in the UK, after all, there can only be so many har dressers.
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smart51
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| posted on 23/6/06 at 09:48 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
Make me wonder what keeps this country going...
Economists will tell you it only takes a few million people to make a fully self sustaining economy. You could divide the UK up into a dozen separate
countries and it would get along just fine. Do you think that Belgium make a living purely from chocolate? You do need a reasonable balance of trade
but in theory, you needn'd manufacture anything. Banking services, design and creative services (anything from car styling to advertising
agencies) tourism, comodity trading; so long as your gross profit from servicing overseas customers is about the same as your imports, then you can
live reasonably well without manufacturing industies at all.
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mcerd1
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| posted on 23/6/06 at 10:52 AM |
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My family are all farmers, agricultural engineers (tractor mechanics), teachers and medics, and I'm an engineer (I design steel structures for
electrical substations mostly) - so not exactly on this governments list of favourite people (policy wise)
I'm not an economist, but how can any industry exist only as a service provider ? and lets face it call centres are not exactly the high paid
skilled work that other people have mentioned (and we are starting to see how easy it is to move these jobs to India and other countries)
Services like hairdressers so on just help move money around they don't give you any net gain
The service sectors that are making money are consultancy and financial services, all it would take to wipe out lots of financial jobs is a bit of a
stock market crash (well that might be a tad extreme, but they aren't the most secure jobs in the world)
The consultancy I have no problem with, but as pointed above out the expertise in countries like china is growing every year - how long will it take
before they don't need much of our help ?
The problem with most of these jobs is they don't add value to the product (or in the case of the consultants, only produce intellectual
property witch is easily acquired or copied by others - e.g. the Chinese now claim to own all Rovers designs)
Mining, Farming, Fishing, Oil & Gas have products which can be sold, manufacturing adds value to the raw materials before selling them on - but a
TV isn't worth more because you pay someone to sell it or sit in a call centre - it will cost more, but all that happens is someone sets-up shop
on eBay with the minimum amount extras and sells it 20% cheaper (closer to its real value)
Leaving the whole NHS issue to one side, there are major problems in the other essential services (infrastructure etc) - builders, plumbers and so on
- I think that most of the blame for this lies with the government education policy, and as a result with the schools
The government target of 50% of school leavers going into higher education can't be sustainable, up here in Scotland I think its not far off 50%
(and has been that way for a while) most people are expected to try and get into Uni and apprenticeships are somehow just a backup plan for the thick
people and failures - and its not as if plumber is a low paid job these days (a mate of mine is now a time served plumber, he isn't even very
good at it and is 2 year younger than me, but he bought is first house a year or so back and I still can't afford one round here - mind you the
Dax doesn't help this)
My brother did an HND in agriculture, he found it far to easy, but no one could believe that he didn't want to do the degree - and even worse
went of to another college to do agricultural engineering (tractor mechanic) when he finished, he's now a 22 year old 2nd year apprentice -
planning to move to New Zealand when he finishes his training
Anyway all that happens is that they get there degree and (assuming its not in literature or art) go off and work in England, Europe, Australia or the
US as there are hardly any jobs for them in this country, the net population in Scotland is actually falling !
I'm the exception to the rule, I did my 4 years at uni (scraped a Mech Eng degree - I hate maths) and landed a job 6 miles from my house as an
assistant engineer in a small fabrication company (only 15k but I had the wrong degree and need to learn everything - also I don't mind as I
think structural engineering is easier)
9 months later the only other engineer quit - leaving me as the 'senior' (i.e. only) design engineer - 3 years later the pay as gone up
considerably (and there is a good chance if you are in the south east of England, some of my structures are involved in supplying power to you now)
nearly everyone else I know that did engineering either left the country or works for a bank
Being a small company we have a strange structure - management wise there is the foreman in the workshop, and one in the yard and above them the MD -
in the office there is just the MD above us and he also owns a big stake in the company - our customers on the other hand are big international
concerns like Siemens and ABB in the departments that we deal with they have about 4 engineers each with 50 or more managers, purchasers, accountants,
legal and admin staff, and the engineers are seen as a necessary evil - never mind the fact that they are the only ones who directly contribute to the
finished product !
Anyway rant over, for now.........
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smart51
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| posted on 23/6/06 at 01:19 PM |
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This is an idealistic comunist model. Before you go all Senetor McCarthy on me, I'm not suggesting that we try it.
There is a remote village, miles from anywhere, that acts as a commune. Each person works in their chosen profession without pay, for the village.
The village provides to everyone as they have need.
The farmer farms land and produces slightly more food than the village needs because the village has enough land to do that. The meat is taken to the
butcher and the skins to the tanner, the wheat is taken to the miller and so on. Food is given to all equally according to need, not status. The
teachers teach all the children in the village, the musicians play at everyone's weddings and funerals. The builder builds using bricks made
from local clay and stone from the local quarry. The joiner uses wood from the local forrester and everyone is happy. Excess food, wood, bricks and
stone is sold outside the village and the money is used to buy in goods that the village doesn't make. There is an equal balance of
payments.
Everyone leads a happy and fulfilled life.
Now change the above scenario so that everyone charges for their own services and pays for the services of others. The same work is done by the same
people for the same people. All you do is pump money around. You don't make money, yet still everyone is fed.
Now let's assume that all the "making" professions are contacted out over seas, the food growing, the tree growing, the brick making
etc. There is more money going out of the village than coming in. This is fine so long as it is balanced. If the people who were doing the making
now provide services to outsiders, the balance of payments is maintained and everyone is still happy.
The UK can afford to outsource manufacturing and call centres so long as we replace them with something of equal value. You don't have to do
everything internally as in the first illustration but you must maintain a balance.
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trogdor
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| posted on 23/6/06 at 02:34 PM |
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there is a definate problem with the skill base in this country, alot of people are doing degrees that are a waste of time, i am beginning to wonder
how much my degree is going to help me get a job as its in oceanography which has given me a good background in physics, chemistry etc but its not
much more complex and further forward than what i did at A level. i am not sure what i plan to do when i finish next year with a masters in
oceanography.
i kinda wish i had done a better degree in just chemistry or engineering, as there is a definiate point to those!
[Edited on 23/6/06 by trogdor]
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