mr henderson
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| posted on 25/10/08 at 11:16 AM |
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Is now a good time to start a kit manufacturing business?
No, I'm not asking for advice personally. I am pressing ahead with my own plans, I realise I can't choose to go back 5 years or wait til
times get better...
But I do think about this stuff, and I wondered whether anyone else would think that this would make a good conversation topic.
I must admit to being surprised that this topic doesn't come up more often. Most everybody here is interested in building cars, and in the
design and engineering aspects, plus I know some of us at least are having career problems.
I suppose the drawbacks to starting a kit car manufacturing business would be the outlay that would be required, the time spent not earning while a
prototype was being developed, the worry that the car might not be popular, and that the general economic situation was unfavourable.
Dealing with the last problem first, my feeling is that the economic situation is a problem anyway. One might say "best to stick to supplying
stuff that people need, rather than (what some might see as ) toys for big boys".
Thing is, though, the market for necessities is already very well supplied by people who are well established.
Anyway, if anyone has any thoughts they might like to put forward on this subject, I would be interested to hear them
John
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Volvorsport
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| posted on 25/10/08 at 11:31 AM |
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never is a good time !
its all about making money to survive and pay your bills at the end of the day .
need to be at the top of the game to achieve that .
ive got some ideas about how i could redo what i started with , in fact i know i should have done something different with my plans !
www.dbsmotorsport.co.uk
getting dirty under a bus
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MakeEverything
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| posted on 25/10/08 at 11:32 AM |
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John,
If i were looking to start the manufacture and sale of a kit, i would try and design something in my spare time (or allocated business time) in an
attempt to remove the lack of earning whilst prototyping. I know this isnt always as easy as it sounds, and some people like you say, are struggling
already.
The current state of affairs with Mr Browns 10 years of negligence and mis-management, is (we hope) temporary, and will eventually take an upturn,
which is when you want the prototyping to be finished, and ready to sell as a kit.
People dont have a great deal to spend on toys at the moment (in general), and i personally would ait until the economy takes a rise.
The other consideration of course, is you now need a bulletproof business plan o get any financial support from a bank or lender as a result of the
above, so manufacturing costs would be increasingly negative which of course poses a huge risk in itself. Another good reason to crack on and perfect
a prototype, then flash it around to see what people think BEFORE commencing manufacture.
Just a few of my views, hope it helps anyone looking to make this decision.
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
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Howlor
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| posted on 25/10/08 at 11:35 AM |
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I think that no matter how bad things are people still need a 'release' to keep sane. Yes obviously some will not be able to afford to
continue building but there are also alot that will and new people coming in to the scene.
Every time the shares rise and fall as they do each day, somebody makes a lot of money. So not all people are suffering.
I think, like everything, people may buy a cheaper alternative and may buy a bit at a time rather than a full kit, but they will still continue to
pursue the hobby.
Steve
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mark chandler
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| posted on 25/10/08 at 11:39 AM |
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A few reasons why I would not start up this type of business.
My little car is my hobby, if I try to make a business out of it I will lose the personal satisfaction.
In order to compete you need to be completely bespoke or carve a decent section of the market place. The two are interlinked, without a reputation
bespoke work will be hard to come by, without work you will not build a reputation easily.
Value for money, to be cheap you need to scale, this means usually having enough work to employ other people this then allows you to purchase raw
materials at a good price and fund product development
A good racing heritage and having built proven competition winners would assist, I have neither.
If the idea is to assist other people in the building of there own cars, re-engineer stuff engine transplants and the like I am sure there is some
work out there, but I suspect a lot of travelling would be required to collect and deliver.
Regards Mark
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theconrodkid
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| posted on 25/10/08 at 11:42 AM |
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now might be a good time to accumulate tools and bits that sadly someone going out of business is getting rid of,,as said above,run it as a
"hobby" till it can take off and earn you enough to make a profit and live on.i think the future is midi btw
who cares who wins
pass the pork pies
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chrisg
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| posted on 25/10/08 at 11:45 AM |
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I'd say that the over-riding factor is is the product.
The right thing will always sell, finding the right product is where the skill (and luck) comes in.
There's a reason that most new kit car companies start out with a seven-a-like at first.
Sevens are popular and simple to build, no doors or curved glass. These companies live and die by price and customer service.
At the opposite end are well funded replicas (in the loosest sense, I'd include people like Ultima in this) These are quality products with a
consequently high price and these companies used to "graduate" to production car status but that is more difficult these days.
Although there's more money involved initially the top end kits are probably a better risk financially. The well heeled are a better customer
base than we humans. These companies trade on their name and reputation.
In between? Things like the Murtaya or the Aeon, inovative and forward looking they need to present a genuine alternative to the likes of the MR2 or
MX5.
Overall I think it's going to be difficult for a while but I think there are untapped niches which the canny company might exploit, but
I'm keeping those to myself!
Cheers
Chris 
Note to all: I really don't know when to leave well alone. I tried to get clever with the mods, then when they gave me a lifeline to see the
error of my ways, I tried to incite more trouble via u2u. So now I'm banned, never to return again. They should have done it years ago!
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mr henderson
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| posted on 25/10/08 at 12:12 PM |
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Some very interesting responses so far.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned so far (probably because it's bleeding obvious) is the importance of keeping costs down. My own
workshop is on a nearby farm, the rent is very reasonable and I can make as much noise as I want, plus I can receive visitors and delivery lorries
without getting unwanted attention and annoying the neighbours.
As CRK, I also believe that the future is Midi, and that's the direction I am going in, and like Chrisg I think the product itself os what
really matters, and that there are indeed a few niches left out there.
John
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russbost
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| posted on 25/10/08 at 12:36 PM |
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Well I guess I fill one of those niches.
I've been running the Furore business part time for the last couple of years.
It has taken far longer to come to fruition largely due to the incompetence of suppliers (one chassis manufacturer in particular who used to frequent
this forum, tho' not heard anything of him for some time) & I am very glad that I have not been relying on this for an income as it has
recorded substantial losses for both of the last 2 years, (useful for keeping the tax bill down but not for feeding the family)I will record a profit
this year but largely due to Ebay/parts sales rather than sales of vehicles. That said I have sold 3 chassis kits & one full set of bodywork &
have just refused a deposit from a very keen customer until I get some supply wrinkles (with the chassis) ironed out. John, I still hope to have some
work for you shortly if you're still interested!
All this without placing any advertising or taking a stand at a show - presumably something about the car must be right albeit it is a bit like
Marmite.
I would suggest there is never a right or wrong time in respect of global events rather is the market ready for a particular product. Good luck to
anyone starting a business at any time - it is not as easy as some people seem to think, but not hard to keep people happy if you do your job
properly.
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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Triton
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| posted on 25/10/08 at 02:24 PM |
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No time is the right time to start especially with all the rules and regs this country inflicts on those trying to better themselves!!
I had a visit from environmental health bods after someone complained about smell, now the bloke walked in right passed what we do then
asked..."what do you do and what materials do you use"...this country is buggered and run by complete and utter knobheads!!!!!
My Daughter has taken over production of the damn fine Triton race seats and her contact email is emmatrs@live.co.uk.
www.tritonraceseats.com
www.hairyhedgehog.com
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Dick Axtell
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| posted on 25/10/08 at 03:03 PM |
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New Business Start-up
I've been helping my son-in-law start up his small retail business this year. Still doing the books!
Starting a new manufacturing business involves a whole raft of rules and regs, some of which have already been mentioned above.
Gotta say that whoever plans to go for this type of business, (i.e. making & selling kits), make a careful survey of the existing market for kits.
Then, using data from your survey, carry out the classic business SWOT analysis.
S - Strengths; W - weaknesses; O - opportunities; T - threats.
Unless you product will be unique, either in quality or design, your competitors will be the most likely threat, closely followed by your suppliers,
(how reliable are they?), and probably, your bank manager!
Don't forget to organise an experienced accountant; he'll be worth it, in the longer term.
Work-in-Progress: Changed to Zetec + T9. Still trying!!
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motorcycle_mayhem
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| posted on 25/10/08 at 07:56 PM |
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Yes, I have thought long and hard about turning my 'hobby' into a business. I believe it's the fear of failure, putting all my
savings into something that may not actually pay the rental of an industrial unit, let alone insurance and all the enviro bollocks. My savings would
be gone.
I've just been made redundant (no payout the Company went bust), money isn't therefore a renewable resource via other means (there are no
available Pharma/manufacturing/discovery jobs in the UK). So, there you go, fear.
I've had a huge success over the last two years Sprinting my GSXR750/1000 powered Westfields (try youtube - videos by wageslaveracing). Also
pistonheads
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/755839.htm
A couple of people have asked if I could do the same for them (re-engineer for alternative (or) bike power). Problem is, when I cost out what
I'd have to charge (as a perfectionist) I can't see it being commercially viable.
As for the kit thing, I've had a relationship with a few Clan Crusaders (+Irish) in my time, I'd like to think a BEC-powered Clan middie
would be great. I've already got the front half clamshell mould which I made - since I kept understeering the Imp powered thing into circuit
furniture. My God though, I just can't see the cost.
Components - I guess a safe place to start. Whether the heady smell of styrene and mess of GRP or epoxy and carbon. I've made a few Clan body
parts as afavour to a few friends, a few Westfield-type wide arches for others and special seats to boot, but as a business, hell - it doesn't
take long to realise the time/profit costs aren't too great again.
I guess lots of people are in this making kit-car/ bits debating arena. I take my hat off to those out there doing it, trying to make ends meet. I
can't see a safe way to do it, so I'm sending off my CV to International Pharma/Chemical companies in the hope that they're after a
PhD Chemist (some hope).
Meanwhile, if someone out there really does have a great idea and is looking for a partner.... I'll get out from here and see you over a
pint.
Meanwhile, let me assure you, having your employer in Administration is a real shitty (and impoverising) way to end a career. If only
manufacturing/research was as heavily favoured as Banking.
OK, rant mode off.
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zetec
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| posted on 25/10/08 at 08:30 PM |
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I think part of the problem with trying to sell a new kit is that the average tintop/sports car has moved on in performance terms and their costs have
dropped in real terms. If you go back ten years the cost of a Scubby/Cosworth etc was high so the cheap route to performance was thru building a kit.
Now you can get serious performance for very little money on the secondhand market makes spending £10K+ on a LSIS which you can only use in the summer
seem madness. I also see less and less young people working on their own cars as we used to, sure they mod them with bits of plastic being bolted on,
but years ago everyone could service their cars as they were simple to work on...now we hear it you can't change a part without it being recoded
by the local stealer. Get something that appeals to the next generation of kit builders and you might be onto something. The days of churning out crap
looking designs just to be different I hope are behind us.
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mr henderson
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| posted on 25/10/08 at 08:51 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by motorcycle_mayhem
Meanwhile, if someone out there really does have a great idea and is looking for a partner.... I'll get out from here and see you over a
pint.
Put your location in your profile, you might get a response.
John
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Volvorsport
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| posted on 25/10/08 at 10:25 PM |
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motorcycle mayhem .
you need to contact the insolvency service to claim your notice , maybe more .
i had to do that when robin basterd hood went tits up .
www.dbsmotorsport.co.uk
getting dirty under a bus
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mr henderson
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| posted on 26/10/08 at 08:46 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by zetec
Now you can get serious performance for very little money on the secondhand market makes spending £10K+ on a LSIS which you can only use in the
summer seem madness.
This is a very good point. I can add to it, by going back further than 10 years, that rust is not as much of an issue as it used to be, and one of the
delights of working on a kit car then was to get away from the ever present rust that working on cars seemed to entail otherwise.
Anyway, the price and usability issue-
It's my opinion that anyone starting a kit business now needs to have these two things, price and usability right at the very top of their
agenda.
The price issue is obvious, and producing a product that is as good as another, but at a lower cost, is the very best marketing strategy of all. I
have based my designs on being able to use a higher than average proportion of donor parts which will contribute substantially to keeping the overall
build costs down. I'm also using a more modern donor than the average, which means that the donor parts are newer and less likely to require
rebuilding or replacing.
Usability is also a big issue, and making a vehicle that is usable in rain and cold will, I think, give me an edge over the competiton if people are
considering a kit car that they can drive to work in.
Time will tell
John
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MikeR
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| posted on 26/10/08 at 09:42 AM |
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well fair play to any of you thinking of it. I'd love to do something that i love but .... i'm concious that i don't have the skills
and experience.
My personal 'love to see' would be a road legal 1960's single seater. Either bec or v6.
Keep thinking about it..... maybe one day i'll try making my own.
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02GF74
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| posted on 27/10/08 at 12:22 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MakeEverything
The current state of affairs with Mr Browns 10 years of negligence and mis-management, is (we hope) temporary, and will eventually take an upturn,
which is when you want the prototyping to be finished, and ready to sell as a kit.
I don't like him any more than the next man/woman but that is just wrong. 
As far as I understand it, the current situation is due to financial institutions lending money too freely to people as it turns out are unable to pay
it back.
Should Brown have any say as to who banks borrow money to? I don't think so.
Or is it because of the public being greedy and living outside of their means on credit? Again I don't see that as Brown's fault.
A lot of this is being caused by those tw*ts at the stoclk exchange. All is going swimmingly, news goes out about 2 conecutive quarters of negative
growth so the knee jerk reaction results in the stock markets falling. WTF? If the news was not acted on, all would have carried on as before.
anyway, sorry for the off-topic interruption. carry on. 
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MikeR
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| posted on 27/10/08 at 12:32 PM |
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Brown does have a lot to answer for - just most of it isn't very well publicised.
For example, he decided to sell off a lot of our gold reserves against the advice of the bank of england and 7 or 8 major banks brought in for
consultation.
As he pressed ahead they said "what ever you do, don't announce it as it will send the market into a spiral due to you flooding it".
He announced it.
We lost something like 2 billion pounds when he sold the gold compared to what it was worth the day before he announced it.
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02GF74
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| posted on 27/10/08 at 01:33 PM |
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^^^ brillaint - so I am allowed to dislike him even more. 
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mr henderson
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| posted on 27/10/08 at 01:38 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeR
Brown does have a lot to answer for - just most of it isn't very well publicised.
For example, he decided to sell off a lot of our gold reserves against the advice of the bank of england and 7 or 8 major banks brought in for
consultation.
As he pressed ahead they said "what ever you do, don't announce it as it will send the market into a spiral due to you flooding it".
He announced it.
We lost something like 2 billion pounds when he sold the gold compared to what it was worth the day before he announced it.
I would guess that there is probably a bit more to that story. Much as I dislike that Scotch personage (and I dislike him a LOT), never-the-less it is
evident that he is not stupid.
John
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scootz
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| posted on 27/10/08 at 01:53 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
Much as I dislike that Scotch personage...
I beg your pardon?
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mr henderson
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| posted on 27/10/08 at 01:58 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by scootz
quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
Much as I dislike that Scotch personage...
I beg your pardon?
Sorry, was I mumbling? What I meant was
"Much as I dislike that Scotch personage..." only in deference to our many delightful Scottish forum members, perhaps I should have said
Scots.
Although, being English, I feel reasonably entitled to use the English name for people who come from Scotland, rather than the name that they use (in
much the same way as we refer to the inhabitants of France as "The French" rather then "Les Francais"
John
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scootz
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| posted on 27/10/08 at 02:16 PM |
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Disappointed you felt the need to refer to his nationality whilst making disparaging comments about him. The inference being that the fact he is
Scottish is somehow linked to his shortcomings!
I'm not particularly fussed about the use of Scots / Scotch... that's up to the individual. Mind you - that mistake is normally down to
ignorance on the part of the 'user', but as you're admittedly aware of the difference between both words and how its interpreted by
the 'Scots', then it's perhaps fair to assume you were further illustrating your point!
I appreciate that it's hard to convey wit (if that is how it was intended) on a typewritten forum... although 'smileys' do help!
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scootz
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| posted on 27/10/08 at 02:49 PM |
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But anyway, back onto the subject... Manufacturing a kit-car for the 'everday / all-weather' user???
Financial suicide in my humble opinion! If there was a market for this kind of product, then one of the 'big' manufacturers would have
had a determined 'go' at it. The fact they haven't speaks volumes! The only one that I can think of is the Midas and their success
can best be described as 'modest'?
Kit-cars to me are about one thing... 'bang for buck'! This is why the traditional Seven has been so successful - where else can you get
THAT performance for THAT financial outlay. Ergo, I suspect that most potential customers will regard their kit-cars as 'toys'.
If you want to make an 'everyday / all-weather' kitcar, then you will effectively be putting yourself head to head with Factory cars such
as Lotus, Vauxhall and TVR (in the form of EARLY Elises / VX220's / Tuscan's, etc.).
If I were to start a kit car business, then it would be heavily marketed on the 'bang for buck' premise, incorporating a hugely different
aesthetic to the traditional Seven-alike. I would forget any notion of trying to achieve 'everyday / all-weather' usability and try and
find a sensible halfway-house.
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