Let me start out by saying this is my first post and i dont know what im doing (no books yet, a little bit of research, etc.)

All i know is i want to fab my own locost (chassis and all) and i have a end goal in mind. What i dont know is how to get there with designing the chassis. So im hoping someone here has put an american V8 in a locost and/or knows a bit about modifying the stock locost chassis specs.


1) The end goal is to use a LS1/T-56 with a undetermined rear end (not sure weither solid, or IRS and if IRS which)


2) Im 6'3" so id like to widen the frame to fit me and the V8 semi comfortably and stretch it a bit as well. Probably to the caterham SV specs maybe?

3) like in the other thread, id like a donkervoortish look which will include some slightly taller rims and a larger overall wheel diamiter. This means altering the suspension and again, i dont know where to put things (keeping standard ride height)

This also means a narrow nose, but i want to wides the chassis, so... is this even an option without it looking goofy?



Im not ready to build it yet, so I want to plan everything out (mainly the chassis) down to a T so when the time comes i can jump in knowing everything is correct and well thought out.

Firstly welcome!
There are soem plans available for a wider chassis. It's 4"wider, longer and 2" taller. Hence why it's known as the +442 version. Do you have a weight for the engine as if it's too heavy it may be unwise to use it as it'll unbalance the car. I'm not saying don't do it, but look before you leap kind of thing.

I believe its somwhere around 500lbs fully dressed with a t56 (aluminum block/heads and composite intage, etc.)

I wondered that as well. Them i figured with a IRS it might even it out a bit. Or with a C5 transaxle that would even it out even more.


Also, with all the extra bracing/roll bars it going to be a few hundred lbs more then a standard 4cyl/solid rear, but with the added power it should still be a blast!


Some LS1 size specs

The engine is 20" wide from cylinder head exhaust flange to cylinder head exhaust flange. The ehxaust manifolds stick out roughly 3" more on each side.

Cylinder heads are 19 1/2" long
Block is 20 1/2" long from the bell housing flange to the front face of the block.
Water pump is about 6 3/4" from front face of block to front face of pulley.
The engine is roughly 25 3/4" from the bottom of the oil pan to the top of the valve covers.
The motor mount centerline is 12 1/2" forward of the bell housing flange and 8" rear ward of the front face of the engine.
The oil pan is 8 1/2" at the deepest point and about 8" wide from front to back.
The block is roughly 10" wide at the oil pan.

[Edited on 9/8/06 by carsonp]

[Edited on 9/8/06 by carsonp]

Hi & welcome...

I don't know how the LS1 compares weight-wise to the RV8 that I and others are using, but they are a similar size. The LS1 is very slightly bigger I think, but don't quote me on that.

Chassis wise you'll be wanting to go +4" wider. I've gone for an extra inch in hight by using 2x1 RHS for some of the rails, which is a good way of adding some stiffness to cope with the extra weight. I added 2 inches in length in the seat area.

Personally I'm not a fan of the McSorley +442 plans as I think the proportions look wrong (it is +4 in the cockpit area but narrows to standard width at the front to allow the use of a standard nosecone). I based my design on the McSorley +4 plans, and got some ideas for stiffening mods from cymtriks' analysis. So far, so good.

[Edited on 9/8/06 by AdamR]

so that +4 plan your using is wider in the nose as well?

And are all the other added things (2" seat length, 1" height, etc.) in those plans as well?

quote:

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Originally posted by carsonp
so that +4 plan your using is wider in the nose as well?

And are all the other added things (2" seat length, 1" height, etc.) in those plans as well?

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This is a +4 chassis 302 with a 302 T5, According to the builder it is 1250 and 50/50.



I'm building 2 LC7s the first using basicly a V8 Mustang 2 as a donor and prety much all stock MII parts, this will be my wife's put around town economy car (named Put-Put). The chassis is a +4 and if additional height is needed it will be made up in the body work, the wheelbase is 94". I am replacing 1x1.5x11ga(.125) where 1x1x16ga is called for and 1x1x14ga where .75x.75x16ga. The sheet metal will be replaced with various ga steel. The car will be a bit heavier but is intenden as a street car for a non car person. This is being built with things onhand and for maximum CHEAP, I should have between 1000 & 1500 in it.

The second (Shagnasty) is a bit more over the top. The chassis will be very similar but possibly backing off the 11ga. The specs are 392(351) roller engine with aluminum heads, dry sump, EFI, Twin disk clutch with aluminum flywheel, scattershield, T5, MN12 front spindles (with Cobra 13" brakes), MK VIII/Explorer/Cobra based IRS using Rorty plans (kinda), and 17x9 with 245 45 17s front 17x10.5 with 315 354 17s rear 95 Cobra Rs. I have most parts on hand and am finalizing the specs.

If you squint real hard at a Lincoln MK VII and section it down the middle a bit it looks much like a 7 with a bit more shape to the hood. I will be using pieces of a MK VII co create a plug to create the body pieces myself which will wind up on both cars.

If all goes well my hope is to offer pieces for sale after sorting both cars out.

So that one pictured is a standard +4 spec chassis?


do you know if its any taller or anything?

[Edited on 10/8/06 by carsonp]

As far as I know from what he said it is McSorley +4. We exchanged Emails a couple of times and I think he took offense to my response to whether he could use the engine as a stressed member, pretty sure from that he did no reinforcement (that and the weight). My response was with the 302s habit of splitting in two I wouldn't put any more stress on it than needed. Stopped writing, guess he didn't think my response was very funny (I was serious).

[Edited on 10/8/06 by locostv8] BTW you might want to check out http://locostusa.com/forums/index.php as well

[Edited on 10/8/06 by locostv8]

Your going to want to build the chasis around the engine.
A chevy V8 is bigger than a Ford 302 or a Rover V8 by enough to be inconvenient.
I have a ford 302 in what amounts to a standard locost chassis with extra bracing but it isn't an easy fit (I still don't know how exactly I'm going to mount the alternator).
A chevy V8 is significantly wider and would require at least modification of the tunnel area.

350 chevy in a Westy




Some clues. Figure out what axle you are coing to use, then the wheels (particularly the backset) This will tell you how wide a chassis you can build. Build the perimeter and lower rail cross tubes then set the engine in the chassis as far back as you can and still have enough space for you in it. Then build the transmission tunnel and tie down where the firewall will be. One trick is to offset the engine an inch or so to gain a bit more room.

If you go with a solid axle find a 9" out of a Torino/Tbird (they are amazingly heavy) If going IRS use the Tbird/MK VIII setup. Both of these are a bit over 63" and if the wheels have much backset you still don't have a lot of space to work with (the 315s on the 10.5s have a 7" backset). The assumption based on the engine choice will be that you will want WIDE tires and at times liberal application of the happy pedal so don't scrimp in the rear axle setup. The Camaro axles are strained in thier normal application and if I remember correctly the Corvette that you would be able to use is a Dana 44, the 8.8 is 30% stronger.

[Edited on 10/8/06 by locostv8]

quote:

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Originally posted by locostv8
I'm building 2 LC7s the first using basicly a V8 ....... this will be my wife's put around town economy car (named Put-Put).

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quote:

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Originally posted by locostv8
350 chevy in a Westy




Some clues. Figure out what axle you are coing to use, then the wheels (particularly the backset) This will tell you how wide a chassis you can build. Build the perimeter and lower rail cross tubes then set the engine in the chassis as far back as you can and still have enough space for you in it. Then build the transmission tunnel and tie down where the firewall will be. One trick is to offset the engine an inch or so to gain a bit more room.

If you go with a solid axle find a 9" out of a Torino/Tbird (they are amazingly heavy) If going IRS use the Tbird/MK VIII setup. Both of these are a bit over 63" and if the wheels have much backset you still don't have a lot of space to work with (the 315s on the 10.5s have a 7" backset). The assumption based on the engine choice will be that you will want WIDE tires and at times liberal application of the happy pedal so don't scrimp in the rear axle setup. The Camaro axles are strained in thier normal application and if I remember correctly the Corvette that you would be able to use is a Dana 44, the 8.8 is 30% stronger.

[Edited on 10/8/06 by locostv8]

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I seem to remember that in real fitting terms the LS1 engine actually ends up more compact than a Rover V8. I think width wise its similar but with any sort of exhaust manifold the LS1 ends up narrower. I'm pretty sure its no longer.

Wessy with a blower Rover. Actually I believe it is the Rover and the Ford that share similar dimensions.

[Edited on 11/8/06 by locostv8]

AFA Corvette rears go, if you're on a budget, the Dana 44 from the C4 is expensive. It was only used on the lesser optioned M6 cars and has gotten rare and, therefore, pricey. The Dana 36 from the slush-box Vettes is much more common but won't hold as much torque. Not sure if it's true, but I've read the Dana 36 will start to frag above 350 lb/ft of torque. But that's also when used in a heavy street car application. Perhaps it won't matter as much when pushing half the weight.

C5 rears are still expensive as most of those cars are still getting ragged on and haven't been hung up wet yet.

[Edited on 11/8/06 by Tobynine9]

Anyone know what these cars weigh complete, and their weight distribution?

quote:

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Originally posted by Tobynine9
AFA Corvette rears go, if you're on a budget, the Dana 44 from the C4 is expensive. It was only used on the lesser optioned M6 cars and has gotten rare and, therefore, pricey. The Dana 36 from the slush-box Vettes is much more common but won't hold as much torque. Not sure if it's true, but I've read the Dana 36 will start to frag above 350 lb/ft of torque. But that's also when used in a heavy street car application. Perhaps it won't matter as much when pushing half the weight.

C5 rears are still expensive as most of those cars are still getting ragged on and haven't been hung up wet yet.

[Edited on 11/8/06 by Tobynine9]

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Here are ford 302 size specs

Width - Length - Height - Weight

24 - 29 - 27 1/2 - 460


Im not sure if the weight is fully dressed or not??????????


Compared to the LSX

The engine is 20" wide from cylinder head exhaust flange to cylinder head exhaust flange. The ehxaust manifolds stick out roughly 3" more on each side.

Cylinder heads are 19 1/2" long
Block is 20 1/2" long from the bell housing flange to the front face of the block.
Water pump is about 6 3/4" from front face of block to front face of pulley.
The engine is roughly 25 3/4" from the bottom of the oil pan to the top of the valve covers.
The motor mount centerline is 12 1/2" forward of the bell housing flange and 8" rear ward of the front face of the engine.
The oil pan is 8 1/2" at the deepest point and about 8" wide from front to back.
The block is roughly 10" wide at the oil pan.

I've only looked at the blocks of a 302 and a SB Chevy side by side. After I had my first 302 block ultrasounded I seriously considered the Chevy, but it was just too wide for my application.

The Chevy does have a height advantage fully dressed if you go EFI.

Chevy parts are also cheaper and it's a LOT cheaper to build one if you want >300 hp.

Weight distribution, shouldn't be far from 50/50, the engine sits pretty far back just to make it fit, and standard locosts probably have a small rear weight bias.

Weight of the engine, I still haven't weighed mine, but a standard cast 302 block is under 50lbs (based on my ability to man handle it), the aftermarket one I'm using is more like 90. A cast Chevy block is in the middle, and an Ally one probably lighter. Most of the other parts will have comparable weight for the same material.

I'd certainly believe 500lbs dressed.

The biggest issue with these engines is making them fit, you'll need custom exhaust manifolds, custom steering linkage. I also had to relocate my oil filter since it interfered with the front suspension, and I still need to figure out how to mount an alternator in the remaining space.

If you are going with a wider chassis, a lot of these may be much easier problems to solve.

yeah ill definitly be doing a +4 maybe more depending on the rear end.


I found that most D44s go for no less then $1500, which is pretty spendy, but... maybe its worth it, i dont know.


Whats the other option for IRS? The supercoupe? how much do those run?

Just be aware what the car will weigh before deciding if it's right for you.

The most common remarks I see is where someone touts the V8 weighing practically nothing more than the old 4-cylinder engine it's replacing. Other than not believing that myself, that's far from the end of it.

Let's assume for fun the engine weighs the same as the iron 4cyl, but to go along with that switch are these: a larger heavier frame to handle the torque, a bigger heavier transmission, larger heavier radiator, bigger battery, stronger driveshaft, heavier differential, bigger heavier wheels and tires, and don't forget big heavy brakes. Expect to have a much higher operating cost replacing expensive wide tires and of course low mileage.

OTOH I agree, to each his own, and if you want a V8, great. Just don't expect it to weigh "only 50lbs" more than the equivalent 4-cyl car. I feel that's not being fair to potential builders.

I know it will weigh a good bit more tehn a standard 4cyl

Im guessing around 1600lbs or so when its all said and done with the beefier chassis, IRS, T56 trans and LSX motor


How much does a iron 4cyl weigh?

quote:

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Originally posted by kb58
Just be aware what the car will weigh before deciding if it's right for you.

The most common remarks I see is where someone touts the V8 weighing practically nothing more than the old 4-cylinder engine it's replacing. Other than not believing that myself, that's far from the end of it.

Let's assume for fun the engine weighs the same as the iron 4cyl, but to go along with that switch are these: a larger heavier frame to handle the torque, a bigger heavier transmission, larger heavier radiator, bigger battery, stronger driveshaft, heavier differential, bigger heavier wheels and tires, and don't forget big heavy brakes. Expect to have a much higher operating cost replacing expensive wide tires and of course low mileage.

OTOH I agree, to each his own, and if you want a V8, great. Just don't expect it to weigh "only 50lbs" more than the equivalent 4-cyl car. I feel that's not being fair to potential builders.

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is a couple of steps at a time.


This is the Deman BEC LC7 http://www.deman-motorsport.com/widespecs.htm
I believe it is considered state of the art in BEC LC7s.



Deman front suspension. Tbird MN12 spindle & Brakes


Deman rear suspension. Tbird spindles/brakes, half shafts, and diff (it looks like the iron Tbird painted silver)

Total weight for the car is from 980 so far the only change that would be a good idea is up one size in tube size and gauge to handle the V8.

At least in the US it seems a fairly standard transmission to use is the T5, this will weigh the same whether behind a 3/4/5/6/8 cyl engine. The BEC uses a long two piece driveshaft which has to be heavy. A car engine uses a much shorter 1 piece driveshaft and if sourced from a MK VIII it is aluminum. A Turbo coupe 2.3 weighs 450 lbs, that seems to be an acceptable LC7 engine though a bit tall. A 302 weighs 460 lbs in stock configuration with a 351 weighing about 50 lbs more. Using aluminum heads, waterpump, intake, and tube headers you should be able to shed at least 50 lbs. Because of the much greater torque there is no need to use a heavy steel flywheel so the use of an aluminum dual disk flywheel/clutch setup should shed at least another 25 lbs. Most late model bell housings are aluminum though I choose to use a scatter shield given the location of a potential grenade.

Put-Put is being built using a Mustang 2 that I paid $200 for it and a Comet Grabber (302 with 60k on it). It will be a bit heavier because I won't be using aluminum heads and will be using a C4 and a Lincoln Versailles 9" but the cost should be sub $1500 for the whole car.

Shagnasty should be lighter even with a 351 since it will be basically the Deman with probably 50 lbs more steel in the chassis, a T5, and a Cobra aluminum diff. I have 2 351s at this time the first one with 1k miles on it from a wrecked truck that cost 125 with EFI on it, the second is a roller cam with a broken piston I bought for core charge $125.

Yeah I've see a few posts claiming V8s are so light. I think it comes down to how they're weighing it. For example, quoting weight of a V8 but not mentioning it's a short block... things like that.

A website showing engine weights would should be helpful, but ONLY if every component was listed. I'd do it but don't have the access to a wide variety of engines. It would have to be someone who works at a wrecking yard.

http://www.mustangworks.com/articles/misc/EngineWeights.html

I think what kb58 is trying to say is that it's difficult to compare weights without apples to apples comparisons. And often the weights are quoted without context.

I find the 318lb Rover 3500 weight to be a bit dubious when on the same chart an all aluminium 2.5 duratec weighs 360lbs.

Ignoring the difference in block weight for a minute, a V8 has twice as many cylinder heads, twice as many cylinders and connecting rods, and a heavier crank. For the same material it's going to be considerably heavier.

Having said that it has more displacement and generates more power as a result.


I love big engines hell I have a poo load of money in the tuned ford 302 I'm using in my car, but there is no free luch your trading off power for wieght.

I do believe that a well built V8 locost can still be light (relatively speaking) and have a good weight balance, but a bike engined car will be lighter (likely with less power).

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that a V8 powered car will be as light as a BEC. Though the rolling chassis will be at the point you remove the front part of the 2 piece driveshaft because it would be using the same components as the BEC This would more than offset slightly heavier tubing(at least Derman which is a successful BEC). Due to aftermarket support you can get good aluminum heads for reasonable and with these you can get the Windsor near the weight of many of the "acceptable" 4 cyl. The 315s I will be using for street use cost $107 from tirerack.com and weigh 30lbs which is 6 lbs more than a 225. Since you are using an engine that will make at least 400 hp with a cam and good heads you don't need a high strung engine.

I don't think the rolling chassis will be as light as a bec. Since a bec has, to put it one way, more revs and less torque, the chassis doesn't need to be as stiff. However, a big lazy v8 based chassis would probably be heavier due to the extra triangulation/strengthening it would need to counter the high amounts of torque.

Again, I'm defining the rolling chassis to be everything but the engine/trans/radiator. The Deman BEC uses the SAME spindles/brakes/ rear axle assy and uses a rather long 2 piece driveshaft with a mid bearing and mount. Changing the long steel 2 piece drive shaft for a short almuinum one should offset the slightly heavier tubing. Something I will also be doing is, with the same size rotors, convert to aluminum PBR 2 piston calipers allowing about a 33% reduction of the weight of the spindle/brake assy. Actually I will probably buy the front and rear A arms from Deman.


[Edited on 12/8/06 by locostv8]

quote:

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Originally posted by carsonp
yeah ill definitly be doing a +4 maybe more depending on the rear end.


I found that most D44s go for no less then $1500, which is pretty spendy, but... maybe its worth it, i dont know.


Whats the other option for IRS? The supercoupe? how much do those run?

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I just bought a MK VIII aluminum diff complete with a pair of 00 Mustang spindles with hubs and a pedal set off the 00 for $125. The 8.8 is about 30% stronger than the D45.

[Edited on 13/8/06 by locostv8]

Well now im not sure if IRS is really the best way to go...

trying to hook 350hp and almost equal tq to a IRS in a 1600lbs car? A solid might be the way to go just cause it can hook better. I dont know.

I would like IRS. But added weight, money and less traction makes me think otherwise...

quote:

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Originally posted by carsonp
Well now im not sure if IRS is really the best way to go...

trying to hook 350hp and almost equal tq to a IRS in a 1600lbs car? A solid might be the way to go just cause it can hook better. I dont know.

I would like IRS. But added weight, money and less traction makes me think otherwise...

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Its not going to be a drag car, or race car. It will see both, but rarly. The main goal is a fun street car.


Id still like IRS... So maybe ill plan on that for now.


Thanks

quote:

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Originally posted by locostv8
Please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that a V8 powered car will be as light as a BEC. Though the rolling chassis will be at the point you remove the front part of the 2 piece driveshaft because it would be using the same components as the BEC This would more than offset slightly heavier tubing(at least Derman which is a successful BEC

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tralfaz

quote:

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Originally posted by locostv8
Please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that a V8 powered car will be as light as a BEC. Though the rolling chassis will be at the point you remove the front part of the 2 piece driveshaft because it would be using the same components as the BEC This would more than offset slightly heavier tubing(at least Derman which is a successful BEC

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Well perhaps that is partially true, but most BEC's dont need to be built as a +4 chassis to begin with.

My R1 BEC will weigh between 850-900 lbs. 700 lbs less than the proposed V8 car under discussion.

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The book frame is 3” wider and the driver compartment 4” longer than a Lotus 7 S2. But for some strange reason (ask Ron) the book frame is 1”1/4 lower then the Lotus. So big feet might be a problem otherwise i believe you will be fine in a book frame, specially a left hand drive one. A car like this should be a tight fit, scrambling around in the corners is very uncomfortable and tireing.

quote:

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Originally posted by locostv8
This is a +4 chassis 302 with a 302 T5, According to the builder it is 1250 and 50/50.

........... I am replacing 1x1.5x11ga(.125) where 1x1x16ga is called for and 1x1x14ga where .75x.75x16ga. ........


LocostV8,
Please confirm 1" X 1.5" X 11 Ga.
This is not available in mexico.
Will 1.5" X 1.5" X 11 Ga be OK?
Or is it a bit over the top?
Thanks in advance.

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locostv8 - 6/3/07 at 08:25 PM

Time has passed and more components have been collected producing a bit of spec drift. I will be building 2 7s. First will be named Put-put will be traditional with clamshells and the specs are 302/C4(AOD?)/MK VII 8.8. This will be my wifes car, who is NOT a car person, with a target of 275 to 300 hp and good road manners. The second, Shagnasty, will be built along the lines of the Lotus type three seven. The specs on this are a bit over the top using MN12 knuckles/roller 392(351W)/dry sump/aluminum heads/ EFI/Lakewood sshield/ Aluminum Fwheel with twin disk 7.25 clutch/T5(hopefully Gforce dogface)/IRS using 03 Cobra and MKVIII pieces/95 Cobra Rs front 17x9 with 255 40 17s and rear 17x10.5 with 315 35 17s.

The first chassis, Put-put, is intentionally OTT with material strength and will be pretty much a road car for a non car person figuring that the small additional weight will be made up by the power to weight ratio. 11 ga is .125 or 1/8th and I would think should be available most places. The use of this is intended to allow basically a Cage to be built around the tub area partialy for intrusinon protection. As I'm building Put-put I will probably debate and possibly revise the materials to use on Shagnasty. An additional thing I'm doing is using steel sheet welded to the chassis including fill welds to the diagonals then a light coating of Linex( polly bedliner) to seal and further strengthen, I also don't like the prospect of spending most of my spare time polishing aluminum.

Specs are still subject to drift but at this point I have nearly all the components on hand and hopefully will shortly be making sparks. An additional consideration for me is that I have a defibulator/pacemaker and can't do electric welding. I have a Miller stick/mig/tig welder but have to bring in someone to do the chassis welding and the primary pepole I know are stick welders.

Hope this helps. A thread you might want to watch is Rods 5.0 build http://locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1586

[Edited on 6/3/07 by locostv8]

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Aloupol - 6/3/07 at 11:05 PM

quote:

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Originally posted by DIY Si
...Since a bec has, to put it one way, more revs and less torque...

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This has nothing to do.
A bike engine has less torque and more revs, at the crank. At the wheels, the toque is about the same between two cars with about the same power and weight. Actually the wheel torque is the amount the tyre can afford.
Remember power = torque x revs.

[Edited on 6/3/07 by Aloupol]

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Angel Acevedo - 7/3/07 at 12:44 AM

LocostV8,
My question is on the size, you state 1 X 1.25, in Mexico only 1.25 X 1.25 X 14 Ga or 1.5 X 1.5. in 14, 12, 11 and 9 Ga.
Thanks again.

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locostv8 - 7/3/07 at 01:22 AM

The first chassis is 1x1.5x11ga and 1x1x14ga. The second will probably be 1x1.5x14ga and 1x1x14ga. I would think 1.25x1.25x14ga should work quite nicely though.

[Edited on 7/3/07 by locostv8]

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Angel Acevedo - 7/3/07 at 03:36 PM

Thanks LocostV8,
1.25" X 1.25" X 14 Ga. will be.

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Angel Acevedo - 12/4/07 at 10:14 PM

quote:

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Originally posted by Angel Acevedo
Thanks LocostV8,
1.25" X 1.25" X 14 Ga. will be.

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After some tinkering, and due to the condition of local streets and roads decided that 1.5" 14 Ga. would be better for longer chassis life.
Cutting of the steel has begun taking Mcsorley 7+442 as a basis and modifying to suit the increased tube size.
I am willing to document the build for future builders if someone points me on the right direction.
Cheers to all

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locostv8 - 13/4/07 at 06:34 AM

You should probably look at http://locostusa.com/forums/index.php since donors would be more similar. They have a section for builders log which would be a good place to document build. The 91 Cougar would be a good donor car it is kinda the pieces I am using with a few others thrown in for good measure. Look at http://www.deman-motorsport.com/build.htm those pics use a MN12 for front knuckles and rear IRS pieces.

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Angel Acevedo - 13/4/07 at 01:37 PM

Doing that too, I just want to return to locostbuilders.uk a little of what i`ve learned (Spelling?) from the site

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