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No feed back
philw - 14/9/09 at 01:01 PM

I have absolutely no feed back through the front of the car, at least my Peugeot 106 gives some, i'm thinking Castor, any other ideas?

nitram38 - 14/9/09 at 01:40 PM

Castor affects centering of your wheels, so it does help you feel them unwinding as you come out of corners, so at a guess the answer is yes.

Mr Whippy - 14/9/09 at 02:38 PM

as above, either that or you have too much slop in the steering or your tyres are pumped up

philw - 14/9/09 at 02:50 PM

This is how it's set up,

Toe, 0.5 in, camber is 1.5 neg, tyres 18psi, wedge is 18mm steering coupling is tight and i have solid rack mounts(alloy ones from RD)

Shocks have been back to Protech and set up(valved correctly) and the adjusters are free,

Springs are 250lbs F and four clicks from bottom and 200lbs R no clicks, now i have played with the shock settings and i am happyish with them, as for bottom arms haven't had a chance to make the new ones yet so Castor is still 3* positive.

Now as i have said there is NO feel for the road through the front wheels, small pot holes, cats eyes, the only time you know you've hit one is when the rear wheels go over them, it just feels the front wheels are like a big garden roller made of sponge.

[Edited on [1252939910R0=023030p: by philw]

[Edited on [1252939938R0=023030p: by philw]

flak monkey - 14/9/09 at 02:57 PM

I run about 2.5deg neg camber and 0.3deg toe in at the front.

Feedback and self centering are excellent.

Same settings Caterham use incidently

philw - 14/9/09 at 03:00 PM

quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
I run about 2.5deg neg camber and 0.3deg toe in at the front.

Feedback and self centering are excellent.

Same settings Caterham use incidently


What about Castor? i've got it onto my head i need about 6* pos, i don't know why perhaps i have read it somewhere.

flak monkey - 14/9/09 at 03:02 PM

Castor is as the book should be 22mm offset on the top wishbones.

Which gives you 5.5deg from memory

MikeRJ - 14/9/09 at 03:26 PM

quote:
Originally posted by philw
This is how it's set up,

Toe, 0.5 in


1/2 inch sounds like quite a lot of toe in?

philw - 14/9/09 at 04:34 PM

quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
quote:
Originally posted by philw
This is how it's set up,

Toe, 0.5 in


1/2 inch sounds like quite a lot of toe in?


Do you think so?

MikeRJ - 14/9/09 at 05:00 PM

Mat (Procomp) would be the man to ask, but thats a whole lot more than I'd expect for a car running hard bushes etc. Parallel or even a touch of toe out seems to be a common 7 setup.

Even on a tin top toe in is usually of the order of a few mm rather than 1/2".

philw - 14/9/09 at 05:08 PM

Originally posted by MikeRJ

1/2 inch sounds like quite a lot of toe in?



Sorry, i thought you were taking the pee.
It's 0.5deg Toe in

[Edited on [1252948184R0=053030p: by philw]

Jon Ison - 14/9/09 at 05:41 PM

Remember your pugs a fwd car, all your front end is doing is keeping it in a straight line, stopping it or turning it, you don't want a lot of "feel" as such, if you can feel things happening through the wheel you have bump steer or the likes ?

All the feel on a rwd car comes from your ass ?

Sounds like yours is doing the 3 things above ok ?

Is it turning in ok ?
Self centering ok ?
Stopping ok ?

What do you want to "feel"

Thats my 2p anyhow, sounds like a very "settled" car to drive to me.

MikeRJ - 14/9/09 at 05:44 PM

quote:
Originally posted by philw
Originally posted by MikeRJ
Sorry, i thought you were taking the pee.
It's 0.5deg Toe in


Oops, would probably have realised if I read your post a bit more carefully.

Is there any tightness in the steering i.e. if you jack up the front can you turn the wheels lock to lock easily with your hands?

philw - 14/9/09 at 05:59 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Jon Ison
Remember your pugs a fwd car, all your front end is doing is keeping it in a straight line, stopping it or turning it, you don't want a lot of "feel" as such, if you can feel things happening through the wheel you have bump steer or the likes ?

All the feel on a rwd car comes from your ass ?

Sounds like yours is doing the 3 things above ok ?

Is it turning in ok ?
Self centering ok ?
Stopping ok ?

What do you want to "feel"

Thats my 2p anyhow, sounds like a very "settled" car to drive to me.


On the car i used to have it felt like the palms of your hands were on the road, the feed back was excellent, every change in the road surface was fed back to me(not bump steer) even to the extent when the front tyres were on the limit you knew when they were going to let go, you could also feel exactly what the front brakes were doing.
I think the first thing for me to do is change the Castor setting

philw - 14/9/09 at 06:03 PM

Originally posted by MikeRJ


Is there any tightness in the steering i.e. if you jack up the front can you turn the wheels lock to lock easily with your hands?



The steering is as it should be, i tend to take the car apart every winter and go through everything so it's as new every year.

Peteff - 14/9/09 at 06:09 PM

If you want to feel all the bumps put some stiffer springs on. It sounds perfect as it is though if you can ride over a pothole or cat's eyes and not get thrown off line.

procomp - 14/9/09 at 06:20 PM

Hi

A few Q's what tyres are on the car ? And is the suspension off the inboard type ?.

With only 3 degs of Castor you will have very little feed back. 5 Deg is the bare minimum required. 3 deg will give some self centering but not necessarily good feedback. On the racers you would be wanting 6 - 7 or even as high as 8 deg depending on which uprights and setup are being run. This makes the steering maybe a bit heavy for lower speed public road use though. Increasing the camber will possibly give a bit more feedback but will also increase the twitchiness of the car and give it a tendency to follow the general camber and grooves in the road. So not really worth going past 1.75 neg. And of course the camber required for best results will vary greatly from one manufacturers chassis to another with the differing geometry design that been inbuilt.

Cheers Matt

[Edited on 15/9/09 by procomp]

philw - 14/9/09 at 06:44 PM

^ Tyres are Toyo T1s set at 18 psi, i've played with various pressures and this is best for me, it has in board suspension with 250lbs front springs, i tried 300lb but they were to hard, as for Castor i'm sure i read somewhere it should be 6* which you have confirmed, now then i need to make some new lower wishbones and rosejoint them what size joint do i need? i take it i will need 20mm tube but what wall thickness?

[Edited on [1252954566R0=063030p: by philw]

JoelP - 14/9/09 at 07:32 PM

using 20mm tube doesnt leave much room for threaded inserts if you choose half inch roses. I went down to 3/8 roses on mine because it was for track. If yours is a road car, you may want to go to 25mm 16g tube, or 7/8ths if such a thing is easily available.

procomp - 15/9/09 at 06:54 AM

Hi

Make sure that the inboard suspension pivots are all free and not binding. There have been many different designs of bushing used on this setup since JP originally designed it.
The area of the chassis where the inboard mounts is a weak area. Have a good look too see if the chassis is all straight along the top rail. It usually results in a gain in castor if there is a problem but worth checking in case.

Cheers Matt

jeffw - 15/9/09 at 07:18 AM

I would suggest you ask the question over on here http://www.clubstylus.be/ as well. Rob Farley who runs the site also sprints a Stylus and should be able to help you out with settings etc.

Just realised you have already asked Rob.....

[Edited on 15/9/09 by jeffw]