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7" LSD, disc brakes and 13" wheels?
rdodger - 30/10/11 at 10:31 PM

Evening all.

On my new project I will be using a sierra 7" lsd which i believe I have to use Lobro driveshafts on.

I also want to use 13" wheels and wilwood powerlite handbrake calipers. If I buy the Wilwood kit it would use a 240mm disc and a drum bearing carrier/hub with a seperate fabricated carrier. This set up would be the push in driveshaft?

So the question is can I get a combination of parts to enable me to fit the LSD, Lobro shafts and smaller 240mm disc with wilwood caliper?

Cheers

JoelP - 30/10/11 at 11:05 PM

you can get custom shafts made to have different ends on them, and also i believe it is possible to end up with a pushfit LSD, though i think its a case of putting the lsd mechanism into a pushfit diff. Not sure which ends up cheaper though!

Grimsdale - 31/10/11 at 08:19 AM

mix and match driveshafts to get lobro inner and pushfit outers. There's a chap on rhocar who has done it.

adithorp - 31/10/11 at 08:24 AM

Don't know about the 'shafts, but if it's the Wilwood drum to disc conversion that RallyDesign do, you need to get the drive flanges deduced in diameter for te discs to fit.

You can remove the bolt on flanges from the diff by removing the circlip on the inside but don't know if the push fit shaft is the same dimensions or whether the outer end, bolt on stub, is the same dimension as the outer push fit shaft end.

mcerd1 - 31/10/11 at 09:03 AM

quote:
Originally posted by adithorp
You can remove the bolt on flanges from the diff by removing the circlip on the inside but don't know if the push fit shaft is the same dimensions or whether the outer end, bolt on stub, is the same dimension as the outer push fit shaft end.

push-in shafts don't fit into Ford LSD's - they need unequal length stub's to work (different from the open diff's)

hybrid shafts can be made by fitting a lobro CV onto one end of the right sort of push-in shaft, but these have issues with the lobro's wearing out quicker (aparently due to the load the push-in type CV puts on them, which would make sence to me - there are a few old treads about this)


so I think your plan of fitting the calipers onto what you've got using whatever discs will fit sounds like the best answer to me
not sure which discs would make this all work, but whatever they are you should be able to make them fit even if it means making some custom mounts for the calipers.... (I'm planning an upgrade for my fronts - but there are no kits for what I want either)

have you got the wheels already ?
and if so whats there internal diamiter ? (some wheels have more space than others)

the other question is do you really need the willwood calipers ? the ford ones should be more than enough for the back of most cars and if its the weight your worried about there is a cheaper option of using alloy calipers from a golf (mk4 I think, but its one specific type your after)

[Edited on 31/10/2011 by mcerd1]

rdodger - 31/10/11 at 09:06 AM

Thanks Adi/Grimsdale

I think from my research that can be done but doesn't work as the stubs are different lengths?

I wonder if the disc bearing carrier could be modified to suit? Basically make it look like the drum one then bolt on the wilwood kit?

With the drive shafts would it just be a case of removing the inner tripod and fitting the lobro joint?

Cheers

[Edited on 31/10/11 by rdodger]

adithorp - 31/10/11 at 09:10 AM

But are the outer bolt-on stub axles and flanges the same dimensions as the push in shaft ends and stub axles?

If they are, Roger can use them on the rear hub and use his bolt on shafts and LSD.

mcerd1 - 31/10/11 at 09:12 AM

quote:
Originally posted by adithorp
But are the outer bolt-on stub axles and flanges the same dimensions as the push in shaft ends and stub axles?

no they are different too (different bearing size I think)
but iiyama's the man to ask about this - I think he did exactly the opposite and made the disc type hub carriers fit the push-in setup so that he didn't need an adaptor kit to fit the rear discs....

[Edited on 31/10/2011 by mcerd1]

adithorp - 31/10/11 at 09:16 AM

opps, to slow...

To use a hybrid push-in one end, lobro the other end the problem in the push in is spring loaded and pushes against the lobro. The same occures with my hybrid Freelander-Sierra shafts. I modified my Sierra ends to make them self centering and not press the inner end. It's a long explanation of how I did it and already on here somewhere if you care to search.

snapper - 31/10/11 at 09:30 AM

Needs the thicker Desiel push fit drive shafts 27mm and the lobros from standard 27mm
Standard push fits are 24mm.
Remove inner tripod and replace with lobro
Some push fit diffs can be made up with lobro stubs a bit of work needed to clear the planet gear axle
If fitting discs on the rear you'd be better off with a full disc axle and just replace the diffs for an LSD

rdodger - 31/10/11 at 09:41 AM

Not bought the wheels yet

The reason for the messing about is to use an LSD with 13" wheels without spending 1k on a quaife diff

Looks like the easiest way to do this would be to fit the lobro driveshafts, disc brake set up and modify the bearing carrier to accept the caliper.

I don't want to use a set up that might shorten the life of the shaft. I do have a couple of friends who have snapped driveshafts a long way from home!

The Wilwood caliper seemed like a good idea to fit the 13" wheels and seems to work well with powerlite fronts on a sierra master cylinder.

What brake setup have you got Adi? You using a Freelander diff?

Rog

ps Adi I have lost your phone number. U2u it and I will call you and pop over for a catch up soon.

mcerd1 - 31/10/11 at 10:07 AM

if you can do some measuring up and find out what room you'll have to play with inside the wheels then I'm sure you'll find a way of making it all fit with the lobro's on both ends (even if it means a few £ to machine some hubs/discs to fit)

once you've got a few sizes I could draw it up for you and see what the issues are...

[Edited on 31/10/2011 by mcerd1]

rdodger - 31/10/11 at 10:14 AM

Thanks for the offer.

I will get measuring when all the bits arrive.

adithorp - 31/10/11 at 10:27 AM

quote:
Originally posted by rdodger

The Wilwood caliper seemed like a good idea to fit the 13" wheels and seems to work well with powerlite fronts on a sierra master cylinder.

What brake setup have you got Adi? You using a Freelander diff?

Rog

ps Adi I have lost your phone number. U2u it and I will call you and pop over for a catch up soon.


I'm running Freelander quaife diff', hybrid shafts (outer Sierra push-in / inner Freelander), Sierra drum type hubs, Wilwood powerlight calipers all round (with RD's Seirra drum to disc conversion) and Compomotive CXR 13" rims.

u2u on it's way.

Someone is bound to be along to say how poor the handbrake is with the wilwoods. Hobbsy or Jim what they think of mine. ...and 2 of those broken shafts were driver abuse!

jimgiblett - 31/10/11 at 12:50 PM

quote:
Originally posted by adithorp

Someone is bound to be along to say how poor the handbrake is with the wilwoods. Hobbsy or Jim what they think of mine. ...and 2 of those broken shafts were driver abuse!


Only one of the driveshaft failures was due to extreme abuse the other was down to a dodgy repair. Hand brake is excellent on drums

Rog - IIRC Andy Bates prepped an RGB Striker with Standard Sierra LSD and calipers inside 13" CXRs. A bit of fettling with a grinder was required. Also someone on the sevens list was running VAG calipers on an otherwise standard Sierra back end with 13s but never saw that one.

I do need to get an ATB in the Fury but I have blown all my spare cash and some on the ATM (Alfa Turbo Mongrel)

- Jim

mcerd1 - 31/10/11 at 12:52 PM

quote:
Originally posted by adithorp
I'm running Freelander quaife diff', hybrid shafts (outer Sierra push-in / inner Freelander)

just to be clear: I think the freelander dirveshafts are the same type (tripod) as the push-in sierra ones (someone correct me if I'm wrong) and that should be fine, its just mixing them with the bolt-on/lobro ones that gives the problems with wear (the lobro's normally just 'float' and arn't designed to take the 'thrust' load that the spring in the tripod ones produces)

[Edited on 31/10/2011 by mcerd1]

adithorp - 31/10/11 at 01:30 PM

quote:
Originally posted by mcerd1
quote:
Originally posted by adithorp
I'm running Freelander quaife diff', hybrid shafts (outer Sierra push-in / inner Freelander)

just to be clear: I think the freelander dirveshafts are the same type (tripod) as the push-in sierra ones (someone correct me if I'm wrong) and that should be fine, its just mixing them with the bolt-on/lobro ones that gives the problems with wear (the lobro's normally just 'float' and arn't designed to take the 'thrust' load that the spring in the tripod ones produces)

[Edited on 31/10/2011 by mcerd1]


Yes, the Freelander joints are tripod type, but unlike the Sierra ones they aren't spring loaded.

On the sierra the two ends push against each other and centralise the shaft/joints. On the Freelander niether end is sprung and the joints just find the middle naturally (bit of spring in the boot and the air trapped inside). With just one end sprung (in the hybrid), then the Sierra outer joint pushes fully out and the Freelander end is forced fully in. Mine knocked in use originally. I modified the Sierra end to be self-centering by reducing the original spring length and adding another acting against it. I wasn't sure it'd work or how long it would last. It's been like that for 13000 miles now: No knocks, no problems.

rdodger - 31/10/11 at 02:29 PM

I take it the bearing is different in the disc bearing carrier to the drum one and you can't simply swop the bearing?

I have found a couple of suppliers selling alloy bearing carriers. I guess these are for drum though.

linky

Just got off the phone with these guys. They are disc carriers without the lugs! Looks like I might have found the solution!

linky

[Edited on 31/10/11 by rdodger]

mcerd1 - 31/10/11 at 02:43 PM

^^ they should work then, but the issue could be finding a disc that fits the hub...

rdodger - 31/10/11 at 03:23 PM

The escort mk3 240mmx10mm disc fits it you turn down the flange to 134mm. Then I can fit the Wilwood powerlite caliper. Happy Days

phelpsa - 31/10/11 at 06:44 PM

I modified my disc type carriers and fitted 240mm discs. I used peugeot calipers though. Cut down the



Theres a few pictures in here:

http://s125.photobucket.com/albums/p60/LocoPolo/Locost/

rdodger - 1/11/11 at 10:08 AM

I'm getting a little confused, not a difficult thing!

Having spoken to the manufacturer of the alloy bearing carrier they confirm that the are the disc version without the ears for the caliper carrier.

All good so far.

They then went on to tell me that the drum and disc bearing carrier are the same dimensions and bearing size apart from the ears.

Can anyone confirm or deny this?

Thanks
Rog

rdodger - 9/11/11 at 10:50 PM

Anyone?

Minicooper - 9/11/11 at 11:14 PM

One thing I do know is different, the drum brakes carriers have a 80mm diameter location ring and the disk braked carriers use a 82mm locating ring. Although I believe this can vary.

Cheers
David

hobbsy - 10/11/11 at 01:38 AM

quote:
Originally posted by adithorp
Someone is bound to be along to say how poor the handbrake is with the wilwoods. Hobbsy or Jim what they think of mine. ...and 2 of those broken shafts were driver abuse!


Adi's handbrake has the best action I've felt on a kit car. Other than one rally prepared which had a hydraulic handbrake

And Jim is the driveshaft killer - I've merely been a donor on one occasion (after I broke something more expensive and terminal!)

Quaife ATB's are very nice especially around the Alps Somewhere in the future when I have some spare time I'll dig out the video of Adi and I synchronised powersliding up various mountain pass hairpins

adithorp - 10/11/11 at 08:36 AM

That'd be good. Haven't you got one showing the down side of them as well from 2010, where mine (after breaking traction on several corners) decides to grip and lauch us at the wall.

coozer - 10/11/11 at 10:06 AM

7" lsd with lobro shafts and 10" drums on mine, apart from hacking the caliper lugs off the bearing carrier all went together fine.

rdodger - 10/11/11 at 12:31 PM

quote:
Originally posted by coozer
7" lsd with lobro shafts and 10" drums on mine, apart from hacking the caliper lugs off the bearing carrier all went together fine.


I think that will be the answer. Get the disc type machined down to the same as drum to take the wilwood caliper. Might as well since I will have to get the hub turned down anyway.

So anyone know a machine shop who could do this in the Manchester area?

adithorp - 10/11/11 at 01:04 PM

Is it not just a case of, a hacksaw and file and some elbow grease? What about the ally hubs you linked to on page2 ?

rdodger - 10/11/11 at 01:18 PM

I don't think so Adi.

They will need a bit of work to reduce the thickness where the bolts go through to make the wilwood bits fit.

I may still go the alloy route. Just thought it may be cheaper this way. £90 seems a bit steep!

Rog

phelpsa - 10/11/11 at 01:38 PM

Do disc and drum carriers use different bearings?

adithorp - 10/11/11 at 01:48 PM

I've never seen the two side by side so didn't know how much difference there was. Unfortunatly the guy who used to do all my machining has been a bit selfish... and retired.

Ally ones are a bit steep.

rdodger - 10/11/11 at 03:29 PM

Drum



Disc

Minicooper - 10/11/11 at 04:19 PM

I haven't read the whole thread, so this may have already been suggested. Use everything from the sierra lsd disk braked rear setup in its standard form. Certain 13" wheels can clear the standard solid disc sierra rear with a minor tweak to the handbrake spring

Cheers
David

coozer - 10/11/11 at 04:51 PM



I just cut the ears off and bolted the drum back plates on.

rdodger - 10/11/11 at 04:56 PM

I will have to have a look when the brakes arrive.

rdodger - 5/12/11 at 05:56 PM

Just to update this in case anyone else wants to do it.

I cut the ears off the bearing carrier then turned the whole thing down so the rally design bracket fitted over the carrier.

Then I had to machine down the face that the bracket bolts to. This was taken down to 10mm thick (the same as a drum type) It now all bolts together perfectly.

So there you go... 13" wheels with Wilwood calipers and a Sierra LSD without custom driveshafts.