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MK Indy - Sierra brake upgrade
super__dan - 14/1/17 at 09:34 PM

I have an MK Indyblade which having bought as a non runner (ignition problem) and having fixed, took out for the first time today. Now I was bracing myself for the brakes not being great as I know they aren't servo assisted etc however I was really disappointed in these.

Current setup is 240mm front vented disks, rears 240mm solid disks. Red stuff pads all round (I suspect these are part of the problem). I tried warming the brakes up a bit but they still were poor. I really feel I'm going to need some more front brakes.

The car will primarily be used on track days and by two of us so will get good temps. I know it's possible to get 260mm front disks, are these the same caliper but with a different bracket to space the pad further out? On my previous trackday car (MX5) you could go up a disk size from the 1.6 to the 1.8 setup just with new brackets (and disks) and it really helped.

So I was thinking of getting a set of stock OEM equivalent Mintex front 260mm disks and going new OEM pads. Should only be about £100 all in. Can I do this just with different caliper mounts or are different calipers needed

Pictures of current setup below.





CosKev3 - 14/1/17 at 10:40 PM

Red Stuff pads are wank!

The rust on your discs won't be helping matters.

The brakes fitted with decent pads and all the sliders greased up nicely etc work fine and are plenty good enough for these light cars

BangedupTiger - 14/1/17 at 11:05 PM

I binned my vented discs and went solid discs. huge upgrade.

super__dan - 15/1/17 at 06:51 AM

quote:
Originally posted by CosKev3
Red Stuff pads are wank!

The rust on your discs won't be helping matters.

The brakes fitted with decent pads and all the sliders greased up nicely etc work fine and are plenty good enough for these light cars


Noted on the rust, car has sat for some time. Needs some run time in general.

super__dan - 15/1/17 at 06:54 AM

quote:
Originally posted by BangedupTiger
I binned my vented discs and went solid discs. huge upgrade.


Still on 240mm discs? In what way was it better/upgrade?

Presume that needs new calipers?

Still. Interested in understanding what's required to change to 260mm disks if anyone knows?

Matt21 - 15/1/17 at 07:27 AM

Get some new discs and a set of mintex 1144 pads.

I run those on mine on road and track and they're more than capable of the job. Never had any fade from them and they stop you pretty damn quickly.
I'm also interested in this solid disc upgrade info... I thought vented would have been better?

try the discs and pads before you shell out for whole new brakes

matt5964 - 15/1/17 at 08:10 AM

There are thoughts that going to solid dice will improve braking as people have difficulty in getting heat into a vented setup
Due to the cars being so light meaning brakes take a long time to get to working tempreture and could be difficult keeping them there

I run vented with yellow stuf pads and find them excellent road and plenty of track time with good response from cold and I have not experianced any fade. I also went for dot4 fluid due to better temp handspring

Might be worth you have the smallest Master cylinder bore you can get hold of as that makes a good improvement over standard sierra

ian locostzx9rc2 - 15/1/17 at 08:12 AM

New discs and mintex 1144 pads make sure the calipers are ok and sliders move freely and change the brake fluid that should sort it

Ugg10 - 15/1/17 at 08:49 AM

XR4x4 had 260mm front discs. If you have 15" wheels you may be able to use fiat coupe or Peugeot brembo 4 pots on 300mm discs. Caprisport so kits but I think these are for the escort/Capri/cortina uprights.

mcerd1 - 15/1/17 at 09:24 AM

quote:
Originally posted by super__dan
Still. Interested in understanding what's required to change to 260mm disks if anyone knows?


sierra 260mm discs are a strait swap - but you need the next size up of caliper too (basically the sierra with ABS setup - but not 4x4 discs as the offsets are different)
just remember that big brakes will add more unsprung weight
(I have a set of these calipers going spare that you could have for the postage cost, but they'll need a full recon)


as above, mintex pads have a really good reputation and new discs will help massively too.



I don't think anyone has mentioned your master cylinder(s) yet - what have you got ?
if you've got a MC that was really designed to use a servo (like the sierra one) then it will not be ideal without one - there are a few old threads on here regarding suitably sized MS's for non-servo setups

the right size of MC can make a night and day difference to how they feel


[Edited on 15/1/2017 by mcerd1]

SJ - 15/1/17 at 12:17 PM

quote:

I run vented with yellow stuf pads and find them excellent road and plenty of track time with good response from cold and I have not experianced any fade.


Me too. I've found Yellowstuff to be great on my otherwise standard Sierra setup.

BangedupTiger - 15/1/17 at 03:32 PM

quote:
Originally posted by super__dan
quote:
Originally posted by BangedupTiger
I binned my vented discs and went solid discs. huge upgrade.


Still on 240mm discs? In what way was it better/upgrade?

Presume that needs new calipers?


Yeah still 240 I think, and yes changed the calipers at the same time. Keeping heat in vented discs was impossible due to the weight of the car.

mcerd1 - 15/1/17 at 04:08 PM

Sierra solid discs are 240mm but much thinner, ~10mm rather than 24mm so you need to be careful if you don't change the calipers too

Also the solid ones aren't all that much lighter either...

matt5964 - 15/1/17 at 05:29 PM

quote:
Originally posted by BangedupTiger
quote:
Originally posted by super__dan
quote:
Originally posted by BangedupTiger
I binned my vented discs and went solid discs. huge upgrade.


Still on 240mm discs? In what way was it better/upgrade?

Presume that needs new calipers?


Yeah still 240 I think, and yes changed the calipers at the same time. Keeping heat in vented discs was impossible due to the weight of the car.


I don't find it impossible at all

But you do need the right pad to work well along with the correct MC to match

BangedupTiger - 15/1/17 at 06:11 PM

quote:
Originally posted by matt5964
quote:
Originally posted by BangedupTiger
quote:
Originally posted by super__dan
quote:
Originally posted by BangedupTiger
I binned my vented discs and went solid discs. huge upgrade.


Still on 240mm discs? In what way was it better/upgrade?

Presume that needs new calipers?


Yeah still 240 I think, and yes changed the calipers at the same time. Keeping heat in vented discs was impossible due to the weight of the car.


I don't find it impossible at all

But you do need the right pad to work well along with the correct MC to match


Using yellow stuff pads and I think a transit master cylinder.

super__dan - 15/1/17 at 08:27 PM

Thanks all for the advice. I realise you guys have more experience than me regarding these cars but I've no concern about the brakes not getting hot enough on track as both of us are fairly committed and in my experience the mechanical advantage of bigger brakes is always worth while. I'd rather run overly large disks and run a cooler pad.

quote:
Originally posted by mcerd1
quote:
Originally posted by super__dan
Still. Interested in understanding what's required to change to 260mm disks if anyone knows?


sierra 260mm discs are a strait swap - but you need the next size up of caliper too (basically the sierra with ABS setup - but not 4x4 discs as the offsets are different)
just remember that big brakes will add more unsprung weight
(I have a set of these calipers going spare that you could have for the postage cost, but they'll need a full recon)


as above, mintex pads have a really good reputation and new discs will help massively too.



I don't think anyone has mentioned your master cylinder(s) yet - what have you got ?
if you've got a MC that was really designed to use a servo (like the sierra one) then it will not be ideal without one - there are a few old threads on here regarding suitably sized MS's for non-servo setups

the right size of MC can make a night and day difference to how they feel


[Edited on 15/1/2017 by mcerd1]


I'd be very grateful of those calipers and will take you up on your kind offer, will PM you. I'm on 15" wheels both for track semi slicks and road /track / wet tyres.

I presume these are the disks I would need?

New Ford Sierra 2.0i DOHC 260mm Diam Genuine Mintex Front Brake Discs Pair x2

I'll start out won some Mintex OEM pads and after track day #1 take it from there on temps.

Lastly, I assume it's on the standard Sierra Master Cylinder. Any advice on how to check. I'll have to look out those old threads ad take it from there.

Thanks all again!

mcerd1 - 16/1/17 at 09:32 AM

15" wheels should be fine, the donor cars all used 14" wheels with these 260mm brakes

those discs look right (although I never trust ebay sellers much) if you get mintex one they are: MDC438's (not that the brand will make much difference for the discs - any half decent make will be fine)

I'm not the one to ask about master cylinders (my dax uses 2 separate ones on a balance bar as standard) - but here's one of the old threads:
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=171237



a couple of other points you'll need to think about;

first off the bigger calipers use different pads (mintex MDB1290's should be the right ones for the 260mm type)

and second the bigger calipers have bigger pistons (59-60mm rather than 54mm) so this will have an impact on the ideal size of MC

super__dan - 17/1/17 at 11:50 AM

Change of plan, going to go with the most straightforward route I.e. new standard pads and existing calliper rebuild, then in all likelihood from what I've read a mk1 Fiesta master cylinder then see where I am and take it from there. Despite the pictures, the disks have no lips, they just need a good clean up with some use after a year being stood.

Thanks again for all comments and advice on this thread, trying to take all the info in and decide what's best for us from there. One of my biggest problems is I have very little time to actually work on the car, it's stored 30 miles from me and between work and home am always very busy.

So ref MC's, I presume this 19mm one would work. Do you think the reservoir will be direct fit?

New Ford Fiesta MK1 1.1 19.05mm Piston Diam Genuine Delphi Master Brake Cylinder

If anyone knows of one going cheaper, please let me know ;-)

Cheers

super__dan - 21/1/17 at 09:39 PM

quote:
Originally posted by CosKev3
Red Stuff pads are wank!

Just to confirm the above is 100% correct. Seriously, no one ever put these pads in a kitcar!!!!

Today installed the standard Mintex pads (£24 for front and rear off ebay), cleaned up the calipers, greased the sliders and freed off the sticking handbrake and then changed all the fluid for DOT 5.1. Much, much, much better once they had bedded in, honestly completely different and am happy to keep with this setup until first trackday in March. I could lock the fronts on a slightly greasy road, running new Rainsport 3's.

However.

So I've read to expect a non servo assisted to feel different. To describe the brakes on mine now, there is a fair amount of pedal travel initially with a little braking effort, then the pedal firms up and you can feel it and commit into it. Is that how it usually feels?

I'm querying as when we bled the brakes (old fashioned 2 man method) when you let the pedal up you had to wait a good 20 - 30 seconds before pressing the pedal down again else it was like there was no fluid back in the cylinder as the pedal would go straight down and virtually no fluid would bleed out. This was odd and not very confidence inspiring.

Is the above normal or could I actually have a slightly duff (old) standard master cylinder?

Thanks very much to Robert (mcerd1) for some very useful help via U2U resulting in me getting the right pads first time which was essential as no motor factors near me carry Sierra pads any more.

CosKev3 - 22/1/17 at 01:53 PM

Mine too was hard work to bleed,I think a vacuum bleeder would be better.

I don't have much travel on my pedal,but as you describe the bite point sounds the same as mine

super__dan - 22/1/17 at 02:24 PM

Vacuum bleeder kept blowing off the pipe inside the new fluid bottle. The bleed nipper position on the rear calipers seems particularly odd to me, it doesn't look like it's at the top of the piston back and it points slightly downward?

CosKev3 - 22/1/17 at 02:45 PM

You need to unbolt the rear calipers to bleed them properly, just make sure you put something inside where the pads sit to stop the piston pushing out as you press the pedal

mcerd1 - 23/1/17 at 02:17 PM

quote:
Originally posted by super__dan
I'm querying as when we bled the brakes (old fashioned 2 man method) when you let the pedal up you had to wait a good 20 - 30 seconds before pressing the pedal down again else it was like there was no fluid back in the cylinder as the pedal would go straight down and virtually no fluid would bleed out. This was odd and not very confidence inspiring.


just to ask the stupid question - does your pedal assembly allow the master cylinder to fully return ?

super__dan - 23/1/17 at 04:36 PM

quote:
Originally posted by mcerd1
quote:
Originally posted by super__dan
I'm querying as when we bled the brakes (old fashioned 2 man method) when you let the pedal up you had to wait a good 20 - 30 seconds before pressing the pedal down again else it was like there was no fluid back in the cylinder as the pedal would go straight down and virtually no fluid would bleed out. This was odd and not very confidence inspiring.


just to ask the stupid question - does your pedal assembly allow the master cylinder to fully return ?


Oooh that's a good call. Will check this out (though not until a week tomorrow).