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Alignment done - steering off centre
Banana - 4/6/17 at 02:23 PM

Just had my Indy blade's geometry checked and tweaked,

Set things back to neutral toe and 1 degree camber all round.

The rear drivers side had 8mm of toe in, which i couldn't adjust.

However to drive the car straight the steering wheel is at 11 oclock, although the car tracks straight with my hands off the wheel.

Would this be the rear toe on the right hand side be causing this - and i am essentially counter steering to make it go straight?

If so, id have thought it wouldn't like going straight ahead with my hands off teh wheel.

Im running 14" wheels - what do we guesstimate would be the correct size shim to bring the rear wheel to straight? Im thinking 2mm.

cheers

[Edited on 4/6/17 by Banana]

40inches - 4/6/17 at 02:32 PM

Did they lock the steering wheel in the central position, when they did any adjustments?

SJ - 4/6/17 at 02:34 PM

Unless the guys who did the set up centred the steering wheel after adjusting the track rod ends the wheel is likely to be out a bit. Easiest way is to take the wheel off and put it back on in the desired position.

Banana - 4/6/17 at 02:35 PM

Sort of, we centered it before tightening things up. Then measured everything again at the end with the wheel central.

40inches - 4/6/17 at 02:40 PM

The steering wheel should be locked with a T bar, wedging it to the drivers seat.
Otherwise as SJ says.

Banana - 4/6/17 at 02:41 PM

But the string the box was created and everything measured when the wheel was centred, so surely just moving the steering wheel would mean im driving around with the wheels on the piss, and just masking the issue?

40inches - 4/6/17 at 02:45 PM

If the steering wheel wasn't locked, it WILL have moved when making adjustments.
Just take it off and refit straight, or adjust the track rod ends equally at both sides.

Banana - 4/6/17 at 02:59 PM

Ah i good idea.

Although, as i said everything was checked at the end after all being tightened up. So not sure how the steering wheel would have moved.

cliftyhanger - 4/6/17 at 03:03 PM

But importantly, what are you doing about thh 8mm toe in at the rear? that REALLY needs sorting, one way or another.

Banana - 4/6/17 at 03:12 PM

Shims. But i need to figure out what thickness would give me the required movement.

Is possible the rear right toe in could be casuing all this?

Say the wheel was central and the front wheels tracked - would that rear toe in be enough to cause me to need to counter steer?

Slimy38 - 4/6/17 at 03:16 PM

quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
But importantly, what are you doing about thh 8mm toe in at the rear? that REALLY needs sorting, one way or another.


I was going to say, there seems to be an awful lot of focus on the steering wheel, when an 8mm toe in at the rear will cause the thrust angle to be out (which might actually be the reason why you're driving at 11 o'clock). I had a bump in my car where the rear wheel looked almost straight, but I had to drive it home at a 45 degree angle to compensate!

You'll have to calculate what shim you need. If you measure the distance to the tyre and then the distance to the hub, and use that ratio on the 8mm to get what you need. I would expect it to be closer to 1mm than 2mm.

Banana - 4/6/17 at 03:25 PM

Indeed, I'm going to address that before changing the front.



[Edited on 4/6/17 by Banana]

Slimy38 - 4/6/17 at 03:54 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Banana
Indeed, Im going to address that before changing the front.

But is it likely that toe in would cause me to have to counter steer? Assuming everything else is straight.


8mm toe in means that the thrust angle will be towards the left. The caster angle on the front wheels means that they will try and match the left angle, and turn slightly left. That will cause the steering wheel to move left, and I'd bet tuppence 8mm on the rear results in an 11 o'clock steering wheel position. You car will be pointing very slightly right as it's driving forward.

I'm oversimplifying things a lot, but it's a little more than a coincidence.

rusty nuts - 4/6/17 at 04:16 PM

I had very slight toe out on my car which I corrected using shim stock ISTR the Sierra owners forum may have a rough guide to shim thickness?

Banana - 4/6/17 at 04:41 PM

Yep, its essentially steering from the rear.

From first glance, it seems i can get away with just slackening the hub nut and remove the four bolts attaching the hub to the upright - Insert shims, and refit bolts.

Am i missing something? Seems to easy..

SteveWalker - 4/6/17 at 05:54 PM

There are a number of threads on RHOCAR relating to shimming hubs - even if they are referring to shimming the top out to correct camber. They tend to use machined, u-shaped shims which slope from the think edge to the thin ends of the U. I presume that they are trying to avoid flat shims at one edge leaving large stress concentrations where the hub is only supported on the edge of the shim. Whether this is a real problem or not, I don't know.

britishtrident - 4/6/17 at 05:59 PM

Before starting any adjustments check the rack is centralised -- ie the steering wheel postion on left full lock should be an exact mirror image of the position on right full lock.

rusty nuts - 4/6/17 at 06:14 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Banana
Yep, its essentially steering from the rear.

From first glance, it seems i can get away with just slackening the hub nut and remove the four bolts attaching the hub to the upright - Insert shims, and refit bolts.

Am i missing something? Seems to easy..


When I did mine I didn't touch the hub nut, there was enough room to insert the shims just by removing 2 of the bearing housing bolts and loosening the other 2 .

Banana - 4/6/17 at 07:21 PM

Thanks for confirming - so experimenting with different shims shouldn't be too tricky it seems.
Im sure i read this was a pig of a job..

Thanks Steve, i have been trawling the RHOC forums. Angles shims would be preferable, and once ive established the correct thickness thats needed, i will upgrade to these.

Banana - 4/6/17 at 09:51 PM

So i managed to add toe out with 2 x 1mm shims, before it got dark. After a quick blast, this in turn has almost centered the steering wheel!

Seeing as the other three wheels have neutral toe, im going to shim the one wheel out fractionally more until the steering wheel is central and use this as a rough guide to having achieved matching toe on the rear. Then take it back for measuring and see where i am.

Banana - 5/6/17 at 10:05 AM

Been thinking about this shimming lark - Surely even if wedges are used, the main problem with this is how the bolt head is not sitting flat when tightened down.
It can only go into the thread straight, so a correctly angled washer would need to go under the bolt head really.

Has anyone done this or worried about it? I imagine the bolts are strong enough tbh, but belt and braces and all that..

Banana - 7/6/17 at 06:58 PM

Thought id update this, as it might help someone in the future.

It does indeed seem to be the rear toe on one wheel which was throwing my steering wheel off center.

After a few attempts, i found 2 x 1.2mm washer have bought the toe to neutral, as best i can measure, and corrected the steering wheel to almost center.

Im mindful of thrust angle though, so im double checking my rear wheels from all wishbone mounts and an imaginary center line.

This also confirmed the toe in on the offside, and neutral toe on nearside as per the alignment check i had.

After the washers were added, this bought the offside to neutral, with equal measurements to the wishbone mounts/center line.

Does this sound correct to you guys? I don't think there is any other way of checking/adjusting thrust angle is there?

gremlin1234 - 7/6/17 at 07:40 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Banana
Thought id update this, as it might help someone in the future.

It does indeed seem to be the rear toe on one wheel which was throwing my steering wheel off center.

After a few attempts, i found 2 x 1.2mm washer have bought the toe to neutral, as best i can measure, and corrected the steering wheel to almost center.

Im mindful of thrust angle though, so im double checking my rear wheels from all wishbone mounts and an imaginary center line.

This also confirmed the toe in on the offside, and neutral toe on nearside as per the alignment check i had.

After the washers were added, this bought the offside to neutral, with equal measurements to the wishbone mounts/center line.

Does this sound correct to you guys? I don't think there is any other way of checking/adjusting thrust angle is there?

remember, the tyres may have worn a bit/a lot while the alignment was significantly out. so I suggest you run it for a reasonable distance, (as now it is close to what it should be) and then check/adjust again

Banana - 7/6/17 at 08:49 PM

Thankfully ive done very little miles on these tyres.

Need to get a full contact shim next, as washers are a bodge.

Does the way i checked the thrust angle seem correct to you?

gremlin1234 - 7/6/17 at 09:11 PM

quote:
Does the way i checked the thrust angle seem correct to you?
its best to check alignment in 'normal running condition' ie you in the drivers seat.

[Edited on 7/6/17 by gremlin1234]

Banana - 7/6/17 at 09:18 PM

Of course, but i mean in terms of a reference point to go from.

gremlin1234 - 7/6/17 at 09:26 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Banana
Of course, but i mean in terms of a reference point to go from.
yes, you have a good starting point, and seem to be heading in the right direction, (as I hope the car will !)