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Whats the crack with average speed camras ?

monck - 27/1/13 at 12:27 PM

Right hello everyone ,

Im talking about average speed checks (Yellow cameras) for slower speed limits on motorways due to road works ...

Reason being ...

Last week was driving from Cheshire to Dorset on the motorway i go in to a 50mph zone on 2 occasions enforced by these cameras due to road works ect .. As a result i slow to 50 in the slow lane ...

As per usual soon start getting overtook by lorrys ect and the plenty of idiots doing still over 70 mph ...

Whats the deal do they not work ? Surely cant if everyone's at it ?

Im trying to keep a clean licence as not long got rid of my 3 points

Ryan

PSpirine - 27/1/13 at 12:43 PM

I've never met anyone that's been fined by a average speed camera.

Mind you, the M25 variable speed limit cameras also apparently issued not a single ticket in 2012.

One thing the long stretches of 50mph averages speed zones DO achieve is epic fuel economy..

Ben_Copeland - 27/1/13 at 12:45 PM

Most people will push it to just under 60mph. (hence lorries overtaking at 57)

Most cars mean they are actually travelling at 57 or 54 for lorries, which is within the maximum speed set on the cameras.

I will usually go through at 55

If your sitting at 50 means your doing 47 really as speedos over read by 3-5mph

Ben_Copeland - 27/1/13 at 12:48 PM

quote:
Originally posted by PSpirine
I've never met anyone that's been fined by a average speed camera.

Mind you, the M25 variable speed limit cameras also apparently issued not a single ticket in 2012.

One thing the long stretches of 50mph averages speed zones DO achieve is epic fuel economy..

Becareful on the dartford bridge/tunnel stretch. They DO give tickets as a mate got one. 70 in a 60 approaching tunnel tolls

coozer - 27/1/13 at 12:54 PM

I know someone who got done on the M62 averaging 59mph.

IMO its bet just to stick to 50mph obeying the law.

Proby - 27/1/13 at 01:02 PM

My old boss got done twice in a month on the M6 works average speed cameras a few years back, do they do work.

HowardB - 27/1/13 at 01:03 PM

get a roadangle and eliminate doubt,...

Sloan85 - 27/1/13 at 01:08 PM

I have been told by someone who works in traffic management that only one section of the average speed check can be active at a time. If there are 10 cameras on a stretch, only two (e.g. 3rd + 4th) can be active at one time. Not sure how true this though! I always slow down, i don't want to take the risk.

theduck - 27/1/13 at 01:11 PM

Know someone who got done twice in a week on the m5 when the avg cameras were up.

snapper - 27/1/13 at 01:26 PM

There were ways of getting round average speed cameras, changing lanes was a way but now the computer systems can track you reg
It depends if you are a gambler or not
Be a bit harsh getting done for 9 mph over but would risk not slowing down at all?
Me, I stick to the speed limit through any speed camera area, average, spot or temporary

carlknight1982 - 27/1/13 at 02:01 PM

I got done at 2:30am on a Saturday morning between dart ford toll and the m11 when the average speed cameras were there 59 in the 50 limit

wilkingj - 27/1/13 at 02:08 PM

Also be aware that a "section" covered by a Avergage Apeed camera may contain MORE than two cameras. Often three or possibly even four.
My old speed system showed them up as SPECS, and it surprised me after passing two cameras, it still said I was in the zone. Wasnt until after I had passed the third camer it said I was out of the zone. SO beware if you havent got a road angel or whatever.
My tomtom, just shows the cameras, and not whether you are within the zone covered.

I agree... stick to the speed limit, and keep those points OFF yout licence.

Also be wary of changing lanes, assome of the newer cameras can cover more than one lane.

coyoteboy - 27/1/13 at 02:23 PM

OK the crack with the average cameras is people do get done by them, regularly.

They tend to have a slightly higher limit than single point cameras, by anecdotal evidence, but they still work.

Roadangels and the likes only know the location of the stetch of cameras that form a group (and even those are usually reported by users, not officially registered, so open to inaccuracies), they have no idea if they're operational or not (you can tell if they are operational as their IR illuminators glow dim red if the camera is active, but by the time you can see that you're already registered) but usually there are only two on a stretch, but a stretch might be combined with another stretch almost immediately after to cover another area, so don't be fooled into a false sense of security if you pass two.

Ultimately, they're there for a reason - usually a really REALLY short section of road, just use your common sense and slow down for the whole section, then go on your way, rather than second-guessing the camera operation methods and layout to gain 30 seconds through a strip of road.

[Edited on 27/1/13 by coyoteboy]

Slimy38 - 27/1/13 at 02:24 PM

quote:
Originally posted by snapper
There were ways of getting round average speed cameras, changing lanes was a way but now the computer systems can track you reg

Having worked on ANPR systems I know how quickly and accurately the systems can read your number, whether you're mid lane-change or even hidden behind a lorry! Although it is quite funny when they register '0000' when an A4 drives past...

I can't comment on there only being one section active at a time, from a technology point of view there's nothing stopping all cameras being active all the time and there is no cost difference.

The M42 ones are the ones with the highest 'hit rate' that I know, there's quite a regular income coming from those just on their own. The A14 ones around Cambridge aren't far behind. But Monck you are absolutely right, when I'm following the speed limits on the M6 or M42 ones I feel like I'm the one holding up traffic.

monck - 27/1/13 at 03:01 PM

Cheers for the reply's so far very interesting , I just felt everyone was going faster because they knew something i didn't hence me being overtaken so much ...

I noticed for some reason in the day its not as bad most stick to around 50 ish but at night ive seen car after car go well in excess of 70 in one of these zones ... Do they assume the cameras don't work in the dark or something

chillis - 27/1/13 at 03:31 PM

A good friend of mine was involved in the development and testing of the latest average speed check cameras. They can read your number plate and thus track you even if you switch lanes. They calculate your average speed through the whole speed check area not just between cameras. A ticket is usually triggered above 58 mph average so as not to generate loads of tickets for lorries going through on their speed limiters, so many lorries are foreign and the drivers tend to be 'conveniently' difficult to trace
Keep to 50 or below and you're guaranteed not to get a ticket
Please note they are 'usually' triggered at 58mph but do not take this as guaranteed, I will not accept responsibility or claims for compensation if this figure is proved wrong!

[Edited on 27/1/13 by chillis]

morcus - 27/1/13 at 03:58 PM

Watch out for policemen in unmarked cars, they can ticket you at 51 in a 50, and more so they can keep you by the side of the road for an hour and see if they can find anything else to do you for. Just stick to the limit, if other people want to overtake you at illegal speeds, so what.

The real question is why put up a sign infront of every camera on the M4 saying the camera is off.

wilkingj - 27/1/13 at 04:07 PM

quote:
Originally posted by chillis
A good friend of mine was involved in the development and testing of the latest average speed check cameras. They can read your number plate and thus track you even if you switch lanes. They calculate your average speed through the whole speed check area not just between cameras. A ticket is usually triggered above 58 mph average so as not to generate loads of tickets for lorries going through on their speed limiters, so many lorries are foreign and the drivers tend to be 'conveniently' difficult to trace
Keep to 50 or below and you're guaranteed not to get a ticket
Please note they are 'usually' triggered at 58mph but do not take this as guaranteed, I will not accept responsibility or claims for compensation if this figure is proved wrong!

[Edited on 27/1/13 by chillis]

+1 on that.

However dont stick to 58mph... It could be a 50mph or even a 40mph section. Stick to the limit.
I have seen Specs sections at 40, 50, 60 and 70, mph.
There are several multi camera sections about, and some of the A14 is one of these (local to me).

Usual yardstick is speed + 10%. Cops will probably give you 2mph on top of that, as this is to ensure a definate conviction in court, ie no escape route for people with clever lawyers!

Also I agree about people going faster than you.
I run upto 4 x GPS's in my car at times, ALL read the same, the speedo is upto 5mph different at some speeds.
I also can log my position and speed at various timing points. (Yep, I'm a bit of a Geek)

I use cruise control in specs sections, as your speed can creep up if you are not watching it all the time.
I am surprised that most cars are abt 3mph slow at 60mph.
Dont rely on your car being slow or fast unless you have carefully checked it all several different speeds.

Any points you get will not make your insurance any cheaper next year!

Just my 2d's worth.

wilkingj - 27/1/13 at 04:10 PM

quote:
Originally posted by morcus
Watch out for policemen in unmarked cars, they can ticket you at 51 in a 50, and more so they can keep you by the side of the road for an hour and see if they can find anything else to do you for. Just stick to the limit, if other people want to overtake you at illegal speeds, so what.

The real question is why put up a sign infront of every camera on the M4 saying the camera is off.

I am pretty sure they cannot do you for 1mph over the limit. Its speed + 10% as a minimum.

As the Camera not working signs, These are usually Roadworks related cameras, and they havent moved them when they are not needed anymore due to that section of work being completed.

But as you say, safest to stick to the limit.

puma931 - 27/1/13 at 05:07 PM

The M1 had them for over a year (gone now - Luton) and at first I used to stick to 50 and after a while 60 and never got a ticket. Some drivers would do 70 and then brake for the average speed camera ??? And some would duck behind a HGV and then boot it.....idiots.

beaver34 - 27/1/13 at 05:17 PM

They work

I it done on m62 57mph

Picture from first camera too

MikeRJ - 27/1/13 at 05:31 PM

quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
Ultimately, they're there for a reason - usually a really REALLY short section of road,

Quite the opposite IME, as they tend to get erected for major road repairs. There were average speed cameras on the A38 for a long time that spanned maybe 6 or 7 miles.

JoelP - 27/1/13 at 06:10 PM

I aim for an average of 62, and upto 70 if you've been held up between 2 cameras. Have been known to tuck in behind lorries but it's not foolproof, you need to pass the lorry at the same time as the camera. Done it 100s of times with no tickets. Not too bothered about points as I'm clean.

Simon - 27/1/13 at 06:34 PM

Just stick to the limit, it won't make a massive difference to your journey time and if you are unfortunate enough to be involved in an accident, at least you'll have a clear conscience - though having driven to Heathrow area last week at 50 - 55 mph, I'd suspect most accidents caused by boredom or dozing off.

I did get best part of 54mpg from the Espace though. Very happy with that

ATB

Simon

Ninehigh - 27/1/13 at 06:52 PM

quote:
Originally posted by wilkingj
I am pretty sure they cannot do you for 1mph over the limit. Its speed + 10% as a minimum.

They can, the 10% thing is more of a "look we're not all barstewards we're giving you leeway here"

What gets me is how do you know they're accurate? I mean if they're a mile apart and I hit the first one at 5.00 doing 30mph, and 2 minutes later I hit the second one that sees me go past at 30mph (but at 5.01) then they'll register me doing 60 when I haven't

I ask as I've heard of a tractor driver going to court to show that his Massey Ferguson won't do 140 like the average cameras said. It's possibly bs but how do we know?

morcus - 27/1/13 at 09:59 PM

The clue is in the word limit, technically you shouldn't be trying to go through the 50 zone at dead on 50 and if the governement or who ever it is that runs cameras wanted to, they could be set to go off at 1 mile over the limit and there was talk of doing this a few years ago as your speedo should always say your going quicker than you are so in our example if your doing 51 mph, your speedo will probably read closer to 55, which is probably what a policeman would say in the highly unlikely event that you got pulled for it.

SteveWalker - 27/1/13 at 10:55 PM

quote:
Originally posted by chillis
They can read your number plate and thus track you even if you switch lanes.

This has been true since the introduction of average speed cameras, but for a number of years they were not approved for monitoring multiple lanes, so changing lanes meant that they were not allowed to issue you a ticket. I think that loophole was closed some time ago.

ianclark1275 - 28/1/13 at 12:39 AM

the temporary ones in road works - some sections work, some dont.

you can tell by looking at the bottom of the pole in the ground and the ones with the wiring work

i was told this by a road builder, but using it as a method of avoidance is highly risky.

i agree that sticking to 50 on speedo seems slow - just follow a lorry

IC

coyoteboy - 28/1/13 at 12:44 AM

They work of the same central clock so no time shift will occur to capture you incorrectly.

And the 10% thing isn't just police leniency, it is built into manufacturers minimum specifications, so legally they must have 10% as minimum leeway or they couldn't assume you were aware of your speed. Where the police leniency comes in is in the additional margin they allow.

P ? - 28/1/13 at 05:29 AM

Being a hgv driver (lorry) all wagons due to having tacho and speed calibrations can hit cruise band on 50 with sure knowledge its a true 50 most cars (makers) tend to go lower rather than bang on the money... I've passed no end of cars with visable speedo readings of 50 and passed them like I've doubted myself.... Best to check your speedo to a sat nav that gives a indication to weather your speedo is out a little.

jossey - 28/1/13 at 06:53 AM

Back when the m1 Sheffield roadworks had average speed camera I was working for Neopost. The used a franking machine to send out the fines. It used to from over a 100 a minute and ran all day Monday to Friday n couldn't keep up so they bought a new one. So 200 a minute....

Nearly 100,000 sent a day. �60 each lol that's a nice profit. Oh wait they don't profit from then.........

I use my sat nav as more accurate speedo my sat nav sits at 50 n my speedo says 54-55

I haven't been caught on any recent ones but I know a few who have been caught on the m62 ones from Leeds west bound.

dhutch - 28/1/13 at 09:47 AM

quote:
Originally posted by NinehighWhat gets me is how do you know they're accurate? I mean if they're a mile apart and I hit the first one at 5.00.00 doing 30mph, and 2 minutes later I hit the second one that sees me go past at 30mph (but at 5.01.59) then they'll register me doing 60 when I haven't

I expect (as in bold) they time more accuratly than to every minute!

As far as I know manufactures are allowed to read upto a certain amount over the speed, but not allowed to read under such that you doing over the speed. The 10% +3 is a formal guide, but only a guide.

I did four years clean and then got stung three times in 12months, ive now done another 4years clean and they have all dropped off, but while a couple of times I have been know to look down at the speedo and think 'ohooo, errr, opps' I always aim to have it reading the speed limit (or less) through section, as said, even if your running late, its not worth the risk, its easy enough to get points without trying to play the system for 10% imo.

Daniel

[Edited on 28/1/2013 by dhutch]

SteveWallace - 28/1/13 at 10:41 AM

I think that we are missing the point here. Average speed cameras in road works are there to protect the workers. I have worked with civil engineering contractors who have had people killed in road works, so we should be sticking to the speed limit in road works for this reason, not just to avoid getting caught.

What bugs me is when you drive through 20 miles of roadworks where its obvious that the work has been completed in all but a couple of miles of it without a contractor to be seen, and therefore there is no reason why they should not lift the speed limit.

I like the system that they have in some US states where speeding fines are doubled in roadworks.

Average speed limits on open motorways - fair game for how much of a margin of error you can play with.

coyoteboy - 28/1/13 at 04:15 PM

Even on open motorway they are there for safety reasons based on
accident stats. If you want to speed with a clean conscience do it on a track.

Ninehigh - 28/1/13 at 05:09 PM

quote:
Originally posted by SteveWallace
I think that we are missing the point here. Average speed cameras in road works are there to protect the workers. I have worked with civil engineering contractors who have had people killed in road works, so we should be sticking to the speed limit in road works for this reason, not just to avoid getting caught.

What bugs me is when you drive through 20 miles of roadworks where its obvious that the work has been completed in all but a couple of miles of it without a contractor to be seen, and therefore there is no reason why they should not lift the speed limit.

I like the system that they have in some US states where speeding fines are doubled in roadworks.

Average speed limits on open motorways - fair game for how much of a margin of error you can play with.

Very true. Maybe we need a legal requirement for a "workers are in" sign at the start as it's rather frustrating to have to trundle at 50 in the middle of the night to keep the speed cameras happy, and although I'm happy to have them there for the safety of roadworkers they won't be turning up until 8am and I'm still doing 50 down an empty stretch...

Oddified - 28/1/13 at 05:45 PM

I don't think anyone has a problem doing 50mph through road works so long as there's workers there doing something. The problem is as already been mention, more often than not you drive mile after mile through 'road works' when there's blatently nothing been done for weeks/months!!

Ian

motomad - 28/1/13 at 07:34 PM

quote:
Originally posted by PSpirine
I've never met anyone that's been fined by a average speed camera.

Mind you, the M25 variable speed limit cameras also apparently issued not a single ticket in 2012.

One thing the long stretches of 50mph averages speed zones DO achieve is epic fuel economy..

I have on the M11, 56mph average, 3 points and �60 fine, they do work and will catch you