tegwin
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| posted on 10/6/15 at 02:10 PM |
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Classic van braking system help
A friend of mine has been trying to drive around in an old Thames 400e van (Based on a mk1 transit). The brakes have failed on her and the electrics
have caught fire.... Rather than see her get killed I (rather foolishly) offered to help.
Structurally its not toooo bad... cosmetically its tatty...
First thing is the brakes, every single component in the braking system is garbage... I don't know how the owner is still alive!
It has drum brakes front and rear (Two cylinders per front wheel and 1 per rear wheel).
It is all on ONE hydraulic system from a single master cylinder.... Scary...
The master cylinder has a crack in it so needs to be replaced. Logic suggests that I should try and fit a dual cylinder unit in its place... is this a
good idea and where would I find such a thng?
Failing that... where would I find a replacent single cylinder MC?
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Sam_68
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| posted on 10/6/15 at 02:19 PM |
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That looks like a pretty much standard-issue Girling master cylinder.
Check the bore size (hopefully still readable, stamped on the casting), then order from pretty much any competent supplier of brake parts - but
specialists like Merlin Motorsport will have them in stock for mail order, too.
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tegwin
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| posted on 10/6/15 at 02:23 PM |
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The casting is really badly corroded so can't see any markings. I guess I can just measure the bore diameter?
Recon its worth getting a dual system instead? This sort of thing might work..
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FORD-TRANSIT-BRAKE-MASTER-CYLINDER-DUAL-LINE-SYSTEM-1965-68-/310368029065?
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adithorp
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| posted on 10/6/15 at 02:30 PM |
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That looks like a single Girling cylinder as used on most bias bar set-ups. Whats the distance across the mounting bolts. Girling are 2 1/4" I
think.
To stick with the single system, measure the piston diameter and order the same size and even if slightly different pipe outlets it shouldn't be
too hard to re-route. You might have to mix and match on pipenuts as most of the masters will be metric and the slaves UNF.I'm guessingthe pipes
are goingto be replaced anyway.
If going to a tandem (probably wise) then just find one with the same piston size (single dia bore). Something like Mk1/2 Fiesta none servo maybe.
Again you'll have to re-route the pipes
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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Sam_68
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| posted on 10/6/15 at 02:31 PM |
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Yes, you can just measure the bore. It will be Imperial - 5/8" or 3/4" most commonly - but 11/16" or 7/8" is a possibility.
Personally, I wouldn't be bothered with the conversion to a dual master cylinder; what with working out how to get the balance right, it's
not worth the hassle. I'd just make sure everything was overhauled/replaced to a good standard and leave it at that.
Others may disagree..
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rusty nuts
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| posted on 10/6/15 at 02:54 PM |
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IIRC the Thames van preceded the Transit , certainly the engine and gearbox was never used in the Transit being Consul/Zephyr based. Replacing the
master cyl with a dual circuit item would mean a bit more work if you could find a suitable replacement whereas replacing like for like would be
easier. Wheel cylinders , brake shoes etc may be available from someone like Past Parts in Bury St Edmunds amongst others. Pipes and hoses
shouldn't be a major problem
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tegwin
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| posted on 10/6/15 at 02:57 PM |
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Now that I didnt know.... It does however have a familiar ford Pinto in it...
I need to replace all the brake lines as they are rusted to the limits of their lives... Some of the flexis are still canvas weave type...
It wouldnt really be much more work to do a dual cylinder system, the only issue as pointed out above could be getting the balange right....
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britishtrident
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| posted on 10/6/15 at 03:09 PM |
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Thames vans have zero parts in common with any Transit model, most of the parts are Anglia 100e or Anglia 105e and Mk1/MK2 Consul
The cylinder will be same 0.625" bore Girling (same cylinder as Hillman Imp) as used in most bias pedal setups it just might be a 0.7"
bore (same as Sunbeam Imp) but I don't think it will. The cylinders and kits are easily enough available, as are the wheel cylinders just
standard 1950-75 stuff you just need to know the style cylinder and the bore to get the seals
[Edited on 10/6/15 by britishtrident]
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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britishtrident
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| posted on 10/6/15 at 03:20 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
quote:
Originally posted by tegwin
Now that I didnt know.... It does however have a familiar ford Pinto in it...
I need to replace all the brake lines as they are rusted to the limits of their lives... Some of the flexis are still canvas weave type...
It wouldnt really be much more work to do a dual cylinder system, the only issue as pointed out above could be getting the balange right....
While a tandem dual system won't affect the balance because all drum systems of this era were designed around much smaller bore master cylinders
it will badly affect the pedal effort --- the van will be undriveable.
The engine should be a Consol 1703cc engine
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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tegwin
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| posted on 10/6/15 at 03:25 PM |
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Aha thanks BT. The extra effort to push the extra system rather makes sense. I will see if I can get a replacement single cylinder. The existing
unit would probably have been useable if it wernt for the crack in the mounting flange.
Yup, I think the pinto is a recent addition... Looks like it used to be manual as well but currently has a 3 speed automatic box in there...
Once the brakes and electrics are figured out I think the plan is to figure out a way of mounting some seatbelts... its a bit lethal falling out of
the seat going around a corner!
[Edited on 10/6/15 by tegwin]
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britishtrident
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| posted on 10/6/15 at 03:28 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by rusty nuts
IIRC the Thames van preceded the Transit , certainly the engine and gearbox was never used in the Transit being Consul/Zephyr based. Replacing the
master cyl with a dual circuit item would mean a bit more work if you could find a suitable replacement whereas replacing like for like would be
easier. Wheel cylinders , brake shoes etc may be available from someone like Past Parts in Bury St Edmunds amongst others. Pipes and hoses
shouldn't be a major problem
Transit MK1 used only dreadful the Corsair V4 1700 engine at launch....................no other engines not even the (Perkins) diesel or the 2 litre
V4 until a few cyears later.
The 400E predates the Transit by 10years was basically a pre-ww2 Ford Thames side valve van chassis the 83E converted to forward control and give a
new body and the 1703cc OHV engine from the Ford Mk1 Consol
[Edited on 10/6/15 by britishtrident]
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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Sam_68
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| posted on 10/6/15 at 03:44 PM |
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There's always the option of a servo, of course... but in any case, it's all about selecting the right master cylinder bores.
The balance issue is that if the single circuit system is fitted with a proportioning valve (and I have absolutely no idea whether it will be - I
claim no expertise in 1960's vans!) then you need to figure out how to maintain the same bias with a diagonally split system.
I guess there's also the consideration that a split system would represent a 'modification' in insurance terms (even though if done
properly it can be seen as an improvement), so you might find yourself with a requirement for an Engineer's report, depending on your
insurance company.
[Edited on 10/6/15 by Sam_68]
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cliftyhanger
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| posted on 10/6/15 at 04:43 PM |
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If you really wanted a tandem system, you could probably use one from a late spitfire. They never used a servo, and the braking system remained ths
same throughout production. Cars had the 0.625 (5/8) master cylinder.
A servo would be a bad idea, make the brakes too ferocious, very different to servoing a disc equipped car.
But I would, as others suggest, stick to single line brakes. I have been driving cars with such brakes nearly all my life, and even my current spit
(zetec/jenveys etc) is on a single line system.
Seatbely anchorages may be tricky, especially the shoulder height one. May need to get inventive.
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Sam_68
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| posted on 10/6/15 at 05:04 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
A servo would be a bad idea, make the brakes too ferocious, very different to servoing a disc equipped car.
Oh, I dunno - I always used to fit servos to my Imps (and I believe the Stiletto came with one as standard, unless my memory is playing tricks with
me). For sure, you need to be careful not to overdo it, as drums have more initial bite than discs and so can be a bit 'grabby', but
it's not as bad as all that.
'Course, the other problem is that servos lull you into the false belief that your brakes are actually effective, which encourages you to use
them more, and invites fade if they're over-worked.
I still reckon: stick to standard, make sure it's all in good condition, and drive the vehicle within its limits.
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rusty nuts
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| posted on 10/6/15 at 05:12 PM |
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I have a very vague recollection of a vacuum tank/ reservoir on some of the old Thames vans used with a brake servo ??
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theconrodkid
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| posted on 10/6/15 at 05:15 PM |
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i think the res tank was for the vacume operated wipers,bit before my time really :-)
who cares who wins
pass the pork pies
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rusty nuts
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| posted on 10/6/15 at 05:20 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by theconrodkid
i think the res tank was for the vacume operated wipers,bit before my time really :-)
.
That rings a bell, wipers that went slower the faster you went
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Sam_68
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| posted on 10/6/15 at 05:30 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by rusty nuts
That rings a bell, wipers that went slower the faster you went
It was a safety device, I reckon.
Bit like the vacuum operated pop-up headlamps on he Lotus Elan, that gradually sank back into the nose under hard acceleration.
... it definitely discourages you from driving too fast in the dark or rain, when you can't see the f*** where you're going.
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Fatgadget
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| posted on 10/6/15 at 05:34 PM |
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Mind boggles how those old cars were run of the mill! 
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tegwin
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| posted on 10/6/15 at 07:53 PM |
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Its certainly a unique beasty... Quite enjoying having an old car to fiddle with again... can't believe its been 6 years since I last got
properly down and dirty with a car!
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 10/6/15 at 09:59 PM |
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classic beetle dual master cylinder should be fine as they had small unservo'd drums all round
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