Ugg10
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| posted on 2/3/26 at 12:33 PM |
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Counterclockwise engine diff
It's been a while since I looked into this so just seeing if there was anything new on the market or OEM solutions to the following -
A while back I looked into the Honda VFR1200 DCT bike engine for a kit car, sound like a great candidate - v4 sound, compact, 170hp 95ftlb revs to 10k
(not too far off a Gen 1 Hayabusa) plus has the DCT auto/manual gearbox built in. Complete bikes are now a reasonable cost and wrecked ones around
with quite a few bare engines on ebay.
The big issues is it is a left hand side shaft drive system.
First off, there is a 90 deg gear drive for the shaft on the left side of the engine that looks like it may be possible to remove and add a
sprocket/prop fixing, this would get the engine over on the passenger side of the car for weight distribution and be more like a standard chain drive
bike engine. However, the output will still spin the wrong way round for the majority of car rear diffs afaik (there is a reddit post on some guy
doing this in a moped frame, he ended putting mocking up an idler gear).
One solution would be to run an Elite/Westfield/Quaife reverse box in reverse all of the time but I am guessing they wouldn't last long. Are
there any industrial reverse boxed rated to say 150ftlb and 10k rpm that are designed to run permanently ?
The second is to run a car diff in reverse and upside down but the CWP would be running on the coast side of the gears which again I am guessing may
be an issue. If I were to use a BMW 166 diff from a Z3/E30 I would be running the diff well within it's power rating (iirc these has about 250hp
and twice the torque of the bike engine in a car twice as heavy for the 2.8 version) so would this be much of an issue. Also will a Torsen/ATB style
gears LSD work backward, I am guessing not.
Finally, could you run a 4x4 front diff like those out of the BMW x3 (3.08 ratio) in the rear, iirc these have the CWP machined the right way for
reverse running but would have to forgo an LSD.
Sorry for all of the questions and waffle, but simply is there any way of running a left hand side shaft drive bike engine in a car ideally with a
LSD?
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1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
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gremlin1234
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| posted on 6/3/26 at 01:28 PM |
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from memory, for a car, (typically rear engine setup ) one way of doing this was to mount the diff 'upside-down' (obviously block holes to
avoid oil draining out.)
there are a few other way ways, I think using a diff from an old audi fwd (audi 80 / coupe etc)
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Minicooper
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| posted on 8/3/26 at 10:35 PM |
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Have a look at the audi diffs I'm sure they operate the opposite way to a normal diff
Cheers
David
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gremlin1234
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| posted on 9/3/26 at 07:31 AM |
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having thought about it, the audi inline fwd gearbox and diff, do operate differently, but only because the drive shafts are angled forward a long
way.
this is useful for a mid engine car, but would not fix your issue.
vw beetle/ porche (rear engine) may help you/
or the front diff from a 4x4. perhaps landrover discovery. (and I think you can get these (or convert to) lsd)
edit
or the front diff from audi 4wd
[Edited on 9/3/26 by gremlin1234]
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dai1983
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| posted on 9/3/26 at 03:21 PM |
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I'm assuming it's for a front engine car?
If not then could you use a chain drive diff?
Does seem like an interesting engine but thought they were ruled out due to weight?
Have a similar engine in mind for my build but the shaft comes out the left side. Die to the fearing on it would it suit your Intended diff?
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Ugg10
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| posted on 9/3/26 at 06:06 PM |
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Many thanks for the replies so far.
Sorry, should have been clearer this would be for a front engine, rear drive prop driven sevenesque type car which is why the issues.
There are a number of front diffs from 4x4 cars with lowish ratios (c. 3.1-3.3 for bike engines with a primary gearbox reduction gear) that might
work, for example the BMW x5 f15/16/85/86 models but no lsd option I don’t think.
I may just have to go to my second choices which are the more straditional chain driven bike engines, think the Kawasaki H2 would be a good candidate.
There are a couple of build on YouTube using this engine, a UK one in a mini and a US in a space frame buggy, both mid mounted with chain drives.
---------------------------------------------------------------
1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
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Andy B
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| posted on 9/3/26 at 09:34 PM |
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I’m a long time out of the game but when I had AB Performance bike engines were “our thing”
I saw your post and it peeked my interest because you mentioned the Wesffield reverse box.
I have stripped and rebuilt an awful lot of these units and to be honest I always thought their design was absolutely crap ……….. but and it is a big
but …….. the way they are designed is such that when being turned in normal rotation the forward drive is achieved by input shaft to lay shaft to
output shaft with all the losses and mechanical inefficiencies that entails - however when placed in reverse they are direct drive which is exactly
what you are proposing. I saw many of these boxes fail but always in forward gear. The other thing that needs modding is the stupid sintered breather
which used to do a lovely job of lubing the propshaft whilst draining the reverse box.
We used to unscrew it fit a threaded ribbed spigot and take a tube to the highest point we could then fit a catch tank with a small K&N filter so
any oil blown up fell back via gravity.
That’s about all I can remember about that hope it helps
Andy
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Ugg10
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| posted on 9/3/26 at 10:46 PM |
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Andy, very interesting thanks and sounds positive.
I don’t suppose you know if other reverse boxes work in a similar manner. So far I have found -
Nova Motorsports - https://novaracing.co.uk/reversing-gearbox-for-inprop-shaft-installations
Quaife - https://shop.quaife.co.uk/shop/gearboxes/qbe35g/ more info here https://bondbugzzr1400.co.uk/quaifegearbox.html
Elite - https://www.eliteracingtransmissions.com/shop/p/ctfk8w2gdq7s42ishqvl673mjinx50
Noting the Quaife and Nova suggests a straight through drive in forward.
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1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
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Ugg10
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| posted on 9/3/26 at 11:04 PM |
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Looking into the quaife and possibly nova box looks like these use planetary gears for the reverse element and direct couple for forward rather than a
lay shaft (chain driven in the Westfield and looks like some others are direct cog mesh). Can’t find anything about the elite box though.
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1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
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Andy B
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| posted on 9/3/26 at 11:14 PM |
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To be honest whilst I am aware of the others and have seen a few, my main experience was with the Westfield unit. When I first took one apart I
couldn’t believe that we would be transmitting around 180bho through a drive that was so indirect and then when I saw that reverse was then direct
drive I even thought about trying to switch it around - it just made no sense to me. When I saw your post it reminded me of the design and made me
think it might actually work for you - the breather mod is important tjough
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Ugg10
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| posted on 10/3/26 at 09:55 AM |
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Found these videos on youtube.
@Andy B - is this the same Westfield system you worked on as this one seems to be direct drive in forward and uses the lay shaft for reverse (about
the 17 min mark onwards) unless I am getting the video all wrong. Also shows why the oil is pushed out of the breather which is interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLnfakVGhbg
Also some info on how the Quaife system works with dog tooth engagement for forward (direct) and planetary gears for reverse.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DH2EdpNotM
---------------------------------------------------------------
1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
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Andy B
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| posted on 10/3/26 at 11:29 AM |
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Maybe I’m not recalling it correctly after all this time but I could have sworn it was the other way around
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gremlin1234
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| posted on 10/3/26 at 12:31 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Andy B
Maybe I’m not recalling it correctly after all this time but I could have sworn it was the other way around
but it's still an incredibly useful post indicating that some do it that way.
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Ugg10
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| posted on 10/3/26 at 10:55 PM |
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This may be a stupid idea so do shoot me down if it is -
Iirc when I jack the back end of my car with an open diff if and turn one wheel the other turns in the opposite direction. So, could I use a rear diff
with the input shaft locked off to work as a reverse box. The planet gears are straight cut so should work in both direction equally but I guess the
main question is whether that can work at 10000rpm with a bike engine.
Something like the BMW 168 or Audi A4 rear differential which are similar diffs to the English diff with planet gears so the right design plus have
drive shaft flange connectors rather than push in shafts which may make sandwiching it between the bike engine and the rear diff easier. (Will have an
eBay search for other candidates and see if I can find any with aluminium diff cases.
I guess the cast iron diff case could also be chopped down, the Crownwheel and pinion removed to reduce the size and weight and the reuse the
crownwheel fixing holes to bolt the cradle to the case. Or make a case from scratch out of plate aluminium.
As said, may be a daft idea so please shoot away.
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1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
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