andkilde
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 posted on 16/12/03 at 09:51 PM |
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Fully Independent, De Dion or Live Axle?
Hello All, Ted from Canada.
Struggling a bit with donor choice at the moment. We have Sierras (bastardized ones sold as the Merkur XR4Ti fitted with a 2.3l turbo Pinto boat
anchor) with their easily convertible front uprights and rear suspension which can be cobbled into either a De Dion type or fully independent with
upper and lower a-arms.
Or, failing that we have lots of mini pickups (small rear drive Japanese trucks, as opposed to proper BL Mini pickups) which generally come with
wheazy two-valve four cylinders, auto transmissions and a somewhat wide live rear axle.
I'm leaning toward the Sierra (which can be had cheap) but I'm not sure which is the best way to go with the rear suspension.
De Dion looks to give you a stiffer chassis as you don't cut the outer chassis rails away as with fully independent, but it looks like it
doesn't allow the wheels to act indepedently.
How do they work in a "practical" sense?
Or, rather, is one "better" than the others?
Thanks, Ted
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blueshift
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| posted on 16/12/03 at 09:56 PM |
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do a forum search for "de dion". This subject has been flogged to death several times.
We're going de dion with sierra rear gear, for what it's worth.
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andkilde
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| posted on 16/12/03 at 10:15 PM |
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Thanks Blueshift.
I'd searched but not for "De Dion" by itself.
Cheers, Ted
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craig1410
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| posted on 16/12/03 at 11:30 PM |
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Hi Ted, welcome to the forum.
As Blueshift says this has been covered several times in the forum. Don't take this as a brush-off as we are all happy to provide further
guidance but you will easily find answers to most of your questions with a quick search. If not then let us know.
I'm another de-dion "believer" as I think that this is the best "Locost" suspension setup at present. It is easier to
source the necessary donor parts and will perform just as well as an IRS setup with much less hassle. A "perfect" IRS setup should be
slightly better than de-dion in theory but this is rarely achieved on an amateur build despite the best intentions. De-dion has also been found to
have superior start line traction so if drag races or traffic light races are your thing then look no further.
Take a look at my website as you will find a build diary which gives details of my build and of my de-dion setup. The address is
http://www.craig.chamberlain.name
Good luck,
Craig.
By the way, Cater ham use de-dion on their production car which may help you to draw some further conclusions
[Edited on 16/12/2003 by craig1410]
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blueshift
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| posted on 17/12/03 at 03:09 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by craig1410
As Blueshift says this has been covered several times in the forum. Don't take this as a brush-off as we are all happy to provide further
guidance
Yeah, I didn't mean to sound dismissive. just terse. from a long history in computing and on the internet, the mantra of RTFM is a joyous one
(or use TF search facility).
Search ye the wisdom of the ancient posts and ask further questions to clarify and ye shall be anointed with the wisdom of the gathered.
quote:
By the way, Cater ham use de-dion on their production car which may help you to draw some further conclusions
They're rubbish? 
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pbura
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| posted on 17/12/03 at 04:46 AM |
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Hi, Ted, and welcome!
If you have a supply of XR4Tis on the cheap, then go for it, by all means. I'll bet that over 80% of the builders on LB are using Sierras, so
there's a vast amount of information available. I haven't seen an XR4Ti in years, myself, and I envy the Brits who get their Sierras
practically for free.
Hope you enjoy your reading on the De Dion, and that you reach the logical conclusion. 
Pete
Pete
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JoelP
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| posted on 17/12/03 at 10:29 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by andkilde
Thanks Blueshift.
I'd searched but not for "De Dion" by itself.
Cheers, Ted
The search facility doesnt search for words in any order, it looks for stuff exactly as you wrote it. So compound searches dont work i think.
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andkilde
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| posted on 17/12/03 at 11:08 AM |
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Thanks everyone
No worries on terse, I'm a longtime message board and listserver guy, know the drill, just occasionally forget how to use it
XR4Ti's aren't exactly growing on trees but what is available is usally rotten blown up or bent so if you're patient you can find
one cheapish.
I'm thinking about using a Mitsu 4G63t (cheap speed parts and lots of net support) with the tranny out of a Mighty Max or a Dodge D50 -- know a
guy running the same combo in a BMW 318, apparently everything bolts up.
Cheers, Ted
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Staple balls
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| posted on 17/12/03 at 11:17 AM |
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I expect, as with most search functions, it'll seach for the words seperatly unless you "put them in quotation marks"
or+a+plus+sign+between+each+word
quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
The search facility doesnt search for words in any order, it looks for stuff exactly as you wrote it. So compound searches dont work i think.
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craig1410
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| posted on 17/12/03 at 12:34 PM |
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Staple Balls,
You might want to try that as JoelP is correct in my experience. I rarely have any joy searching when I use more than one word as it seems to be
phrase matching rather than word matching. De dion, De-dion or even De-deon (people spell this various ways...) matches quite well as these words are
closely tied but other related words don't tend to bring back many hits as they may not always be right next to each other in the posting.
Cheers,
Craig.
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JoelP
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| posted on 17/12/03 at 02:41 PM |
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just tested it and i am right, for a change!
try searching for bugatti eb110, chosen only because i know it has com eup before but only rarely. 4 results. then go into the first, pick any word
from that thread and add it, and there will be no results at all cos they are not in the right order. so there!
maybe stuff can be added to separate them, like 'or' or / etc.... dunno.
edit: it is quite funny if you search for peoples fav sayings, like me and 'i guess'! about 20 results a month!
[Edited on 17/12/03 by JoelP]
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craig1410
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| posted on 17/12/03 at 09:11 PM |
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Yes I thought you were correct and I'm sure that this has been reported to Chris (Webmaster) who said he'd try to find time to look into
it.
Cheers,
Craig.
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Simon
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| posted on 18/12/03 at 09:21 AM |
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Ted from Canada,
Welcome to the forum!
I'm going the IRS route, basically because it had never occurred to me to consider using de dion - I did know enough about it!
If you do go that route, I'd suggest a copy of Jim Dudley's "Build a Tiger Avon" book, and graft the IRS bits onto
"Uncle Ron's" chassis (with Cymtriks mods or go with Jim McSorley's plans)
Also, if you do get the other book, you'll need a pot of glue. To keep sticking the pages back in!!
As for your potential donors being "usually rotten blown up or bent", so long as the important bits are ok, does it matter? If the engine
is blown up, you could chuck in something lighter, without the turbo, and another 4 cylinder Rover V8 if you have them over there!
ATB
Simon
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andkilde
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| posted on 19/12/03 at 03:57 PM |
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I was looking at "rotten, bent or blown-up" as a plus
The 2.3l Pinto motor is really tall and heavy so I was planning on binning it. I'm partial to Mini's, have three at the moment, so the
A-series seems like a good option, but the lust for power is pushing me toward the 2l Mitsubishi turbo, have one in my everyday car and it pushes a
3200lb Galant around fairly well.
Pulling ideas from a bunch of different directions on chassis design, folks here have convinced me De Dion is the way to go -- planning on using the
McSorley +4 for the bulk of the chassis. I've had a few too many pies to fit comfortably in a book chassis -- Sat in a Westie at a show once, do
Brits generally have itty-bitty feet? -- my size 13's were really crowded in there.
My father-in-law is a CAD whiz, he's busy grafting the front half of the +4 to the rear De Dion clip off the GTS site. Also found a fellow with
a really comprehensive De Dion page as well.
http://www.craig.chamberlain.name/locost/de-dion/dediontext.html
Thanks very much for the help everyone.
Cheers, Ted
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Simon
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| posted on 19/12/03 at 04:50 PM |
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Ted,
Craig is a member on here - the craig1410 to be precise
I'm not sure I'd be inclined to use a Mini engine. Don't get me wrong - I've had a few including a Turbo'ed one I built
7 or 8 years ago. Just v. old tech now. Even Mini owners find something else with which to replace the A series lump
ATB
Simon
PS Size 8 feet!!
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mackie
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| posted on 19/12/03 at 05:05 PM |
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Not really much more old tech that the Xflow though. Still, not exactly powerful..
There must be a source of 2l 4 cyl engines in canada, 4age, zetec etc or maybe even a buick V8
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craig1410
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| posted on 19/12/03 at 05:19 PM |
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Hi,
Yes, it's me!! Thanks for the reference to my site. I must admit that I got that de-dion information from someone else and I can't
remember who. It was someone from the LB forum so please feel free to step forward and accept your plaudits.
I'd agree with Simon regarding the A-series engine. I too have had a good few of these and although I do have very fond memories, especially of
my Turbo'd version, they are quite heavy and not all that good in terms of ultimate power. You can get over 200BHP from a heavily tuned engine
when bored out to 1480cc or more, but it will be expensive and won't drive all that well at that level of tune.
There are many better options such as the k-series.
Cheers,
Craig.
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Jasper
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| posted on 20/12/03 at 04:14 PM |
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Get yourself a nice Busa lump, they are much cheaper over there and deliver lots of power and tunability. Certainly cheaper than a well tuned A
series.
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andkilde
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| posted on 20/12/03 at 06:49 PM |
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An a-series is only attractive due to the shed full of bits -- I popped over to visit the BEC fellows and noticed they were talking about bike engines
being cheap in Canada and the US.
Quick look at E-Bay, Fireblade and GSXR engines, with tranny, wiring harness and ancillaries are less than $1000 USD 
Am I missing something? Are there massive hidden expenses involved in using a bike engine? Are they driveable on the road, or for track use only?
Seems like a screaming deal, it's roughly $500 for decent a-series core around here, no carbs, no tranny. Toyota 4AGE, Mitsu 4G63, or Ford Zetec
are loads more.
This thread has drifted all over the place -- maybe I should be asking the BEC boys about this.
Cheers, Ted
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craig1410
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| posted on 20/12/03 at 08:33 PM |
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Hi,
BEC's are great fun by all accounts but I'd say that they lean more towards a track day car rather than a fast road car. That's fine
if that's what you are after but many people would find a BEC to be a bit "quirky" as a road car I think.
I'm going for a Rover V8 because I just love V8's but it should result in a car which is very driveable on the road and should be able to
hold its own against all but the top-end BEC's on the track. BEC's will always win out because of the low weight and hence better power to
weight ratio. I could probably tune my V8 to a higher power to weight output than the BEC's but I will always have more absolute weight and
hence will lose out on the corners too.
The sensible compromise is to find an engine which is light, modern and reliable and which can produce enough power to make it fun. I'd say that
you'd be looking for 120BHP+ for serious fun which will equate to a 1.6 or 1.8 litre multivalve fuel injected engine such as the K-series here
in the UK. Do they have the K-series Rover engine in Canada?
This sort of engine will give you a reliable, fast sports car without the weight of a Rover V8 or Ford Pinto engine and without the quirky'ness
of a BEC.
All in my humble opinion of course...
Cheers,
Craig.
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