albertz
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| posted on 28/1/04 at 08:52 PM |
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Wishbones & Bushes
Hi,
I am looking for help (as always) with my wishbones and bushes. I really have two questions;
1. What is the easiest steel stock to get that has a bore suitable for a standard bush (i.e. cheap bush)?
2. What is the recommended type of bush? I have seen various types i.e. metalastic, poly etc
I have access to a lathe so boring a tube out is not really a problem, if i can get a standard sized tube that works so much the better. Also, how
much should i expect to pay for the bushes and where from?
I have probably asked too many questions for one posting but if you can advise on any of the questions then fine.
Cheers
PS: maybe one day i will be able to answer questions, rather than ask them!!
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Mark Allanson
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| posted on 28/1/04 at 09:01 PM |
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With your access to a lathe, you could make up your own bushes out of stock nylon to suit the size of your tube, It is very cheap and you can buy it
by the metre
If you can keep you head, whilst all others around you are losing theirs, you are not fully aware of the situation
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craig1410
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| posted on 28/1/04 at 09:09 PM |
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Hi,
If you decide to use Nylon then don't use it for the trailing arms or panhard rod as it does not "give" enough and may cause a
stress fracture of these components due to its resistance to twisting movements. I have Nylon bushes in my front wishbones which are fine although I
would prefer in hindsight to have PolyU bushes.
GTS Tuning do polyurethane bushes at www.gtstuning.co.uk
You can also get them from other vendors such as Luego, MK Engineering, Stuart Taylor etc.
Cheers,
Craig.
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albertz
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| posted on 28/1/04 at 09:24 PM |
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So basically what you are saying Craig is, dont use nylon at all? Have you got any constructive solutions?
When you say that you wouldnt use nylon for your front bushes, why not? i.e. cost, performance, quality...........
Are GTS the cheapest then? polyurethane the way to go then?
Every answer creates a dozen more questions!!
If you dont know you have to ask.
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Rorty
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| posted on 29/1/04 at 04:57 AM |
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If you want some compliance in your bushes, use shore 70 (or softer) PU (polyurethane) hollow bar.
If you want rigid bushes, use acetal hollow bar or rod (in preference to Nylon). It's a true self lubricating plastic, and can even be ordered
impregnated with teflon and or graphite. It also machines a lot nicer than Nylon. It's basically superceded Nylon for use in bushes.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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Mix
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| posted on 29/1/04 at 09:22 AM |
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I matched Luego bushes to locally sourced bush tube.
Luego PU bushes fit a standard size seamed tube, and the quality of the bushes is good.
You may wish to consider buying prepared bush tubes as they are not too expensive and will save a lot of time hacksawing / turning.
Mick
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James
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| posted on 29/1/04 at 10:23 AM |
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I bought the bushes, the inner crush tubes and the outer bush tube all from MK- that way I could garantee they were all going to fit!
HTH,
James
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splitrivet
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| posted on 29/1/04 at 10:33 AM |
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Beat me to it Albertz I was going to ask the same question.
Want to replace the book metalastics with nylon or summat else and a guy I know with a lathe owes me a favour.
So what tube sizes do MK bushes fit just as a matter of interest.
Cheers,
Bob
I used to be a Werewolf but I'm alright nowwoooooooooooooo
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James
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| posted on 29/1/04 at 10:46 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by splitrivet
So what tube sizes do MK bushes fit just as a matter of interest.
Cheers,
Bob
When I get home I can find out the ID of the outer tube if you want.
My bushes are all assembled on the car so I can't tell you the OD of them!
James
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dozracing
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| posted on 29/1/04 at 01:34 PM |
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Hi,
If you look on my www.gtstuning.co.uk website at the polybushes, and download the attached PDF file, it shows you all the sizes and tube requirements
to fit them.
I also now have some laser cut plates that accept maxi ball joints so you can easily make lower wishbones. Basically you just lay the tube down the
side of plate and weld to it, to achieve a strong and attractive wishbone.
Kind regards,
Darren
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JoelP
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| posted on 29/1/04 at 02:34 PM |
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thats a good addition darren. mine are a mess.
when i got my bushes i did as james did, cept i got the brackets as well so it all fits.
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Alan B
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| posted on 29/1/04 at 04:28 PM |
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Hey Darren, what does the 36 pc poly bush set comprise of?
Just bushes or tubes too?
Cheers,
Alan
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craig1410
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| posted on 29/1/04 at 07:08 PM |
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Albertz,
Yes you are correct, I would NOT recommend nylon even though I am using them for now on the front of my car. It's amazing how much you learn as
you go along... I will replace them one day!
PolyU seems the most popular by far and there are many threads on the forum which will debate the ins and outs, I'm not going to repeat them all
here. Nylon is too hard for comfort and I don't think it is self lubricating so maintenance is required. The main disadvantage is for the rear
suspension where if you are using a live axle or de-dion setup then it doesn't permit the twisting movement which is required in the trailing
arms and panhard rod. I am using rod-ends on the back of my Locost which will make it shake my fillings loose but will be very tight. I think most
people agree that PolyU all round is the best solution and isn't expensive. That's what I'll use next time...
Cheers,
Craig.
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Kitlooney1000
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| posted on 29/1/04 at 08:54 PM |
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I bought the bushes, crush tubes and sleeves from lolocost, they were cheap, but then that shows in the quality. Next time it'll be decent
quality ones from MK or GTS
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dozracing
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| posted on 29/1/04 at 11:22 PM |
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My poly bush kit includes, all the bush halves and the insert tubes as well. I have noticed recently that MK charge about £10 more for just the poly
bush halves, and then charge double the cost for the nuts and bolts than mine but include the inserts in there.
If you buy from MK i believe, bushes and nuts/bolts cost you all up over £80 where as my total would be less than £60.
I'm thinking of doing a comparison table with MK and Luego, because people would be shocked i think on how much more they charge than i do, it
shocked me. I think they have both recently put their prices up, as i originally looked at both in order to find out how much i should charge for each
part.
If i charged Mk rate for Sierra upright mushrooms, i'd make about 700% profit margin on them, Martin must be doing rather well at the moment.
Kind regards,
Darren
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Hornet
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| posted on 31/1/04 at 08:54 AM |
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Darren
The pdf of the bushes states either 40 or 46mm overal width (depending on brackets used. however on the drawing it states 1 Required tube size=
1.25' x 18swg x 30.6/36.6 long.
I assume the lengths are wrong?
Cheers
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craig1410
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| posted on 31/1/04 at 12:48 PM |
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I must admit that I found this unclear myself but just thought I was being thick! 
Also, is 18swg tubing heavy enough for wishbone mountings? I would have expected it to be 2-3mm. Again I may be reading it wrongly.
Cheers,
Craig.
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Rorty
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| posted on 2/2/04 at 04:52 AM |
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It will be a misprint: 18swg is only 1.24mm (.049" ! I'm sure it's supposed to be 13 swg which is 2.41mm (.095".
I've seen wishbones pulled off bush tubes that were 1.6mm wall. Not nice!
I normally use 2.1mm (.083" wall CDS.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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jcduroc
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| posted on 2/2/04 at 03:51 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Rorty
If you want some compliance in your bushes, use shore 70 (or softer) PU (polyurethane) hollow bar.
If you want rigid bushes, use acetal hollow bar or rod (in preference to Nylon).
Bob
Excuse my ignorance but what does "shore 70" mean? And which material is "acetal"?
Cheers
Joćo
JCM
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Alan B
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| posted on 2/2/04 at 04:14 PM |
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The shore number is a hardness measurement for this kind of material...
Acetal is often known under the brand name of "Delrin".....and maybe others...
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timf
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| posted on 2/2/04 at 04:27 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Hornet
Darren
The pdf of the bushes states either 40 or 46mm overal width (depending on brackets used. however on the drawing it states 1 Required tube size=
1.25' x 18swg x 30.6/36.6 long.
I assume the lengths are wrong?
Cheers
remeber darren supplies the crush tube to the required lenght
doing some sums
internal of bracket = 40mm or 46mm
bush shoulder = 4.2
hence using specified lenghts
30.6 + 4.2 + 4.2 = 39mm
36.6 + 4.2 + 4.2 = 45mm
0.5mm protrusion of the crush tube either side of the bush.
depends on the point of view you have
see http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=9719
[Edited on 2/2/04 by timf]
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dozracing
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| posted on 2/2/04 at 06:04 PM |
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Hi All,
Sorry to take so long to post a reply.
The drawing might be a little confusing as regards the tube length. Really this was as a guide to those making the wishbones. The tube length referred
to by this dimension is the wishbone eyelet itself not the crush tube. The crush tube is nominally the same as the bracket width, ie. 40 or 46mm, and
working back you get the wishbone eyelet tube width.
Kind regards,
Darren
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jcduroc
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| posted on 2/2/04 at 08:59 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by dozracing
The tube length referred to by this dimension is the wishbone eyelet itself not the crush tube. The crush tube is nominally the same as the
bracket width, ie. 40 or 46mm, and working back you get the wishbone eyelet tube width.
Darren
Now I don't get it. Isn't Timf right?
And which is the OD of the bushes inner part?
Joćo
JCM
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jcduroc
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| posted on 2/2/04 at 09:00 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan B
The shore number is a hardness measurement for this kind of material...
Acetal is often known under the brand name of "Delrin".....and maybe others...
Thanks Alan
Is teflon rod (to be machined) a good alternative?
Joćo
JCM
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pbura
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| posted on 2/2/04 at 10:46 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jcduroc
Excuse my ignorance but what does "shore 70" mean? And which material is "acetal"?
"Shore" or "duro" refers to hardness as measured by a shore durometer, hence the name.
There are different scales for different types of material. PU bushings for sporty cars are typically 70 to 80 on a shore 3 scale (compared to rubber
at 60), and Delrin is 85 on a shore 2 scale.
I was misled for awhile, thinking Delrin was only 20% harder than PU, as the charts I saw made no reference to the scales used. Wrong! The 2 scale
is for much harder materials. Polyurethane would have a rating of approximately 35 on the 2 scale. Diamonds are maybe 90. Just kidding! There are
some nylons that get up into the 90s.
IMO, Delrin is the hot ticket for racing. One particular brand, Delrin AF, is 1/3 Teflon in composition, and was specifically designed for use as a
bearing material.
Pete
Pete
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