bitsilly
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| posted on 4/9/10 at 03:50 PM |
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When is an engine a 'Race' engine?
I have been offered an R1 engine which was a tuned race engine.
Does anyone know how these engines are for a BEC?
Are they more prone to go bang, or are they much stronger internals (or weaker).
What does tuning them involve?
Cheers
Ed
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grub
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| posted on 4/9/10 at 03:56 PM |
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fragile i would say depends how tuned though
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bitsilly
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| posted on 4/9/10 at 04:01 PM |
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Not sure yet, will ring the tuner monday.
It has about 30 BHP over stock with an akrapovic exhaust and powercommander 3, a 5VY engine.
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Ivan
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| posted on 4/9/10 at 04:18 PM |
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Depends what it was tuned for - a proper race engine with very hot cams would be almost undriveable on the street with almost no torque below
something like 6000 revs or whatever is normal for bike race engines.
If the tuning just took place in the inlet manifold, resonance box and exhaust system and not with the cams then it should be ok for road use with
some compromises at low revs.
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bitsilly
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| posted on 4/9/10 at 04:29 PM |
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It was built by Aim Yamaha racing for the northwest 200 for Steve Plater to ride in 2005 and has been refreshed by Bob Farnham racing recently, so I
guess it is a full race jobbie with cams etc.
Oh well!
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franky
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| posted on 4/9/10 at 04:31 PM |
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to be honest you'd see more than 30bhp from a 'race' engine, a full system/powercommander and a proper rolling road session should
see 15-20bhp at the wheel. a 2002 ish r1 with some head work/cams and the above would see about 30-35bhp more and be fairly reliable.
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interestedparty
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| posted on 4/9/10 at 04:44 PM |
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The definition is simple, a race engine is not designed to operate at part-throttle, full power only.
As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,
I've got a little list-- I've got a little list
Of society offenders who might well be underground,
And who never would be missed-- who never would be missed!
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spdpug98
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| posted on 4/9/10 at 04:49 PM |
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I have a race engine in my MNR built by Graham Barrow.
Mine has differant cams and has lots of head work, both block and head skimmed with a fully balanced bottom end etc. Puts out around 30 bhp more than
a standard 2003 R1, the only thing I worry about is the cost of getting one rebuilt to the same spec if it does go bang!
ETA: The reason it is a race engine is that it was built to go in a race bike, but you could just call it a modified engine if you wanted
[Edited on 4/9/10 by spdpug98]
My Blog: http://spdpug98.wordpress.com/
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bitsilly
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| posted on 4/9/10 at 05:06 PM |
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Cheers all,
I will try and talk to the builders and tuner!
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snapper
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| posted on 4/9/10 at 06:28 PM |
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I am not a BEC owner however "Race engine" usually means undrivable below quite high revs then all he'll breaks loose, fantastic for
track days but a real every day pain on the road, in a CEC (light) I love rally spec engines
Best of both worlds IMHO
I eat to survive
I drink to forget
I breath to pi55 my ex wife off (and now my ex partner)
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franky
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| posted on 4/9/10 at 08:22 PM |
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if its been built for the northwest then it'll not be as tuned as a short circuit motor and will be designed to drive from low revs, might be a
good buy depending on price.
If its a proper jobbie ring the tuner and they'll tell you what spec etc it is.
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 4/9/10 at 09:55 PM |
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Its all in the details.
I have a couple of ex-sidecar engines that I bought very cheap. Allegedly both ran, but one had bits of valve embedded in the pistons, and the other
had a blown head gasket.
But as kits of parts they had all the bits, big valves, heavily ported head, bits of titanium, over-bored barrels, forged pistons, clever trigger
wheels, fancy cams, crankshafts with all the counter weights ground off!
In my case starting isn't great but it can cruise at 3k and with EFI it goes well (I am using more fuel than the gsxr1000 injectors can
supply!). My guess is that the idea of engines that only work flat out, are from carb days where it isn't as easy to set them up across the
whole rev range.
Fragile? it depends on the bits.
I'd go for it, you only live once. Once you have gone BEC, why not go the whole way. The only downside is you won't be eligible for RGB
(which requires stock engine).
Matt
p.s. first check that your split rims are bolted together properly!!
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Rocket_Rabbit
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| posted on 4/9/10 at 10:49 PM |
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From what I know of bike race engines is that they are built to last 'the distance'.
The bores are certainly not upto par with a road item, so it will certainly chew some oil.
Bottom end will be pared down to as light as they can get away with. Rods should have been machined, balanced and peened.
Cams will be long duration with high lift. The high lift will be VERY high, so they will not have a long lifespan - expect a lobe to shear off when
they go.
Titanium retainers are light and have a <5k mile shelf life.
However...
The port polish, valve seat grind should be very useful
As for unning at full throttle?
Rubbish.
Race engine will need to work at all levels of throttle and be uber smooth too.
Just expect them not to run particularly well below 4krpm.
It's up to you what you do of course.
The enigne could be a tuned engine that was used in a racing bike, instead of a 'Race engine'.
Either way, i'd strip it and check what has been done.
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RIE
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| posted on 5/9/10 at 08:09 AM |
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As said it all depends on level of tune. It will be very high maintenance - budget for a full refresh every 1000miles (what I understand to be
recommended for superstock- or supersport-tuned trackbikes).
I disagree that it won't run well below 4K - it probably won't run well under 8K. My (standard road) R1 doesn't wake up til 7K
anyway, and highly tuned race engines sometimes won't idle at less than 3K.
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bitsilly
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| posted on 5/9/10 at 04:33 PM |
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p.s. first check that your split rims are bolted together properly!!
Ha ha! It only happened once!
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motorcycle_mayhem
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| posted on 9/9/10 at 10:47 AM |
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One man's 'Race' is anothers 'Refreshed'.
If a 'Race' bike engine worries anyone with a 'driveability' issue, then they really need to get a Zetec. They really do.
OK, so to answer the question. A 'Race' engine will be very expensive to repair to it's 'Race' specification if it goes
bang. A 'Race' engine WILL go bang, period. The margins the original manufacturer intended are all gone, they've been extended by
the fitment of aftermarket items, and then those margins are removed.
So let's look at one of my exploding GSXR engines - the stroker crank (billet) is a good £2K, the oversize pistons and Carillo rods the same,
the head work, valves, cams etc. etc., block pinning and all that is frightening. The gearbox has to be strengthened (Nova), yadda, yadda.... but it
all goes well over 200 Bhp, sometimes it survives a few events.
OR...
Buy a good standard engine and enjoy 160 Bhp for a long time.
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 9/9/10 at 02:09 PM |
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quote:
The definition is simple, a race engine is not designed to operate at part-throttle, full power only.
That's controversial, are you suggesting that in race situations you're either on the throttle expecting max power, or not, expecting
none?
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gixermark
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| posted on 9/9/10 at 02:19 PM |
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quote:
That's controversial, are you suggesting that in race situations you're either on the throttle expecting max power, or not, expecting
none?
what is this 'part throttle' thing people talk about !! ??
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interestedparty
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| posted on 9/9/10 at 03:19 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Rocket_Rabbit
As for unning at full throttle?
Rubbish.
Race engine will need to work at all levels of throttle and be uber smooth too.
I'm interested, when abouts during a race would you want anything less than full throttle, I thought the idea with racing was to go as fact as
you could? (except when braking, of course)
As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,
I've got a little list-- I've got a little list
Of society offenders who might well be underground,
And who never would be missed-- who never would be missed!
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iank
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| posted on 9/9/10 at 03:27 PM |
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Many years ago I went for an interview at a company that supplied F1 with datalogging equipment and was shown a graph.
Accelerator position was a square wave (from Mika Hakkinen iirc) and I was told the drivers got a telling off if it wasn't because it meant they
weren't trying hard enough.
YMMV, they may have been telling me porkies, F1 requirements will probably not match anything you can afford etc.
--
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Anonymous
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adithorp
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| posted on 9/9/10 at 03:47 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by interestedparty
quote:
Originally posted by Rocket_Rabbit
As for unning at full throttle?
Rubbish.
Race engine will need to work at all levels of throttle and be uber smooth too.
I'm interested, when abouts during a race would you want anything less than full throttle, I thought the idea with racing was to go as fact as
you could? (except when braking, of course)
Whenever you want to stay on it. Just just going WOT and you'll soon be on your arse I'd have thought.
How come it's got a power commander? I thought the race bikes were running fully programable ECUs.
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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interestedparty
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| posted on 9/9/10 at 04:32 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by adithorp
quote:
Originally posted by interestedparty
quote:
Originally posted by Rocket_Rabbit
As for unning at full throttle?
Rubbish.
Race engine will need to work at all levels of throttle and be uber smooth too.
I'm interested, when abouts during a race would you want anything less than full throttle, I thought the idea with racing was to go as fact as
you could? (except when braking, of course)
Whenever you want to stay on it. Just just going WOT and you'll soon be on your arse I'd have thought.
What's that based on? I thought the idea was to go as fast as you could until you have to slow down for a corner, whereupon you brake, and then
when you have slowed down enough you start accelerating again?
As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,
I've got a little list-- I've got a little list
Of society offenders who might well be underground,
And who never would be missed-- who never would be missed!
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40inches
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| posted on 9/9/10 at 05:41 PM |
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The throttle isn't a switch! It sometimes rains, then you need a delicate right hand and feed the power on smoothly, and in the dry the same
applies coming out of slow hairpin bends, Mallory and Cadwell Club to name two. It's a real pain in the aris if you don't, it really is
Although race prepped engines have a narrow power band, they still need some flexibility, whether enough for road use depends on the individual
engine. Just an opinion of course
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progers
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| posted on 10/9/10 at 07:28 AM |
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quote:
What's that based on? I thought the idea was to go as fast as you could until you have to slow down for a corner, whereupon you brake, and then
when you have slowed down enough you start accelerating again?
Based on experience of racing I can assure you if all you do is brake and use WOT you will crash and hurt yourself. There are many instances where
traction is such that throttle control is very important to both a fast lap time and staying on the circuit.....
It is true that much of a lap can see you on WOT (upto 60-70%) but that depends on how many corners there are on a circuit and how powerful your car
is.
- Paul
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adithorp
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| posted on 10/9/10 at 08:40 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by progers
quote:
What's that based on? I thought the idea was to go as fast as you could until you have to slow down for a corner, whereupon you brake, and then
when you have slowed down enough you start accelerating again?
Based on experience of racing I can assure you if all you do is brake and use WOT you will crash and hurt yourself. There are many instances where
traction is such that throttle control is very important to both a fast lap time and staying on the circuit.....
It is true that much of a lap can see you on WOT (upto 60-70%) but that depends on how many corners there are on a circuit and how powerful your car
is.
- Paul
...and thats in a car. This is a race tuned bike engine so the drivability discussion is about how it would be in a bike.
In either case you want an engine where the power/responce is smooth as you feed the throttle in. Just giving it full throttle will result in either
exiting the saddle off the back or visiting the scenery, backwards depending on whether your on a bike or in a car.
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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