Nickp
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| posted on 24/4/12 at 07:27 PM |
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Monte brakes.....
well it doesn't actually!! It never ceases to amaze me how bad the brakes are on the old girl each time I get in it after driving anything
else. It passed its MOT the other day but I need to sort it if I'm going to get some decent use out of it this year.
In 1977 the Lancia Montecarlos were reknowned for having poor brakes, so you can imagine how they feel 35yrs on, and it now has 150BHP which
doesn't help As std it had piddling little 227x10mm discs all round, and used to be servo assisted just on the fronts (mega wet weather
lock-ups!! ) but this has long since gone.
A while back I upgraded the fronts to 240x20mm Uno turbo discs and used Ford calipers as these happen to have the same piston size as the originals.
This stopped the horrendous brake fade / fluid boiling but didn't really add to the overall stopping power. The 240's were chosen to fit
inside the std 13" wheels. I've now got 14" wheels so have a bit more room to play with. Ideally I'd like 257x20mm vented
discs all round, but that's proving a bit tricky. The fronts should be easy-ish by just making new caliper brackets to replace the custom ones I
already have on there. However the rears are proving trickier. I need a 'leading' rear caliper c/w handbrake that will fit a 257x20mm disc
with a piston size as near to 38mm as possible. I thought I'd cracked it with MR2 ones but a trial fit showed these to be far too bulky to be
considered So, unless someone has the answer on here then I'm looking at another option. I'm looking to 'space-out' the
existing caliper and fit a 257x12mm solid disc. This isn't quite as straight-forward as it sounds though. The caliper is only moving out 15mm
(30mm / 2) leaving no room to fit a bracket in between it and the hub. The std disc has an overall depth of 50mm and I've found a 257mm disc
with a 40mm height. I reckon this'll allow me to get a 10mm bracket in there to space it all out. So here come's the question - I was
going to make the bracket out of 50x10mm flat alloy bar, will this be suitable? The hole centres (M10 bolts)from the hub and caliper carrier will only
be 15mm apart so can't see there been too much stress on it. I'm gonna make sure there's plenty of 'meat' around it too.
Or should I just do it in the heavier and harder to work with steel?? Bearing in mind I'll be using a pillar-drill, hacksaw and grinder to do
this rather than a fully equipped machine shop.
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froggy
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| posted on 24/4/12 at 07:38 PM |
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cheapest calipers will be the vag rear fitted to all manor of golf/passat etc . one trick i find helps is to rig the hydraulics up and clamp the
caliper to the disc with pressure rather than trying to wedge it in position with packers . for me i would use steel rather than alloy for piece of
mind 
some jap rear calipers like the later hyundai coupes have a generous pad size but are a bit pricey new
[IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/froggy_0[IMG]
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lsdweb
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| posted on 24/4/12 at 07:42 PM |
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Peugeot / Citroen (Saxo, 106 etc) offer a good option for a cheap rear caliper. And they will fit under 13" wheels so 14s shouldn't be a
problem - here on my Locost a few years ago -
 
Rear caliper conversion 3
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Nickp
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| posted on 24/4/12 at 07:43 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by froggy
cheapest calipers will be the vag rear fitted to all manor of golf/passat etc . one trick i find helps is to rig the hydraulics up and clamp the
caliper to the disc with pressure rather than trying to wedge it in position with packers . for me i would use steel rather than alloy for piece of
mind
some jap rear calipers like the later hyundai coupes have a generous pad size but are a bit pricey new
Hi Dave,
VAGs were the 2nd ones I looked at, after the MR2s, as our lasses Seat is sat on the drive  Unfortunately they're trailing rather than leading
calipers. I considered using them on the opposite side but that adds complications.
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froggy
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| posted on 24/4/12 at 09:06 PM |
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Does that put the bleed at the bottom then ? My pig has the bleed underneath do I have to take them off to bleed them .
[IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/froggy_0[IMG]
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owelly
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| posted on 24/4/12 at 09:24 PM |
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Can't you just swap sides?
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
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britishtrident
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| posted on 24/4/12 at 10:20 PM |
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MG TF Rear Calipers are 38mm bore for 10mm discs.
One thing to watch out for if the discs require the calipers to be spaced out from the brakets in addition to shear force because moving the
caliper outboard creates a lever which causes an increased torue to be generated which tries to twist the calliper bracket off its
mountings
As to making the calliper braket out of "alloy" there are hundreds of grades of aluminium alloys some of which are as soft as toffee
especially when subject to heat so unless you seek advice on the metalurgy and do some calcs it would be a safer bet for you to use steel.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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Nickp
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| posted on 25/4/12 at 05:19 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by owelly
Can't you just swap sides?
Yes, thought about that mate. It does mean that the handbrake working would be arse about face though. The cable nipple would be fixed in place and
the outr sleeve would move to squeeze the brake on. I guess it'd still work but not ideal.
[Edited on 25/4/12 by Nickp]
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Nickp
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| posted on 25/4/12 at 05:33 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
MG TF Rear Calipers are 38mm bore for 10mm discs.
One thing to watch out for if the discs require the calipers to be spaced out from the brakets in addition to shear force because moving the
caliper outboard creates a lever which causes an increased torue to be generated which tries to twist the calliper bracket off its
mountings
As to making the calliper braket out of "alloy" there are hundreds of grades of aluminium alloys some of which are as soft as toffee
especially when subject to heat so unless you seek advice on the metalurgy and do some calcs it would be a safer bet for you to use steel.
Good info fella, are the MG's leading or trailing? TBH I'm after a 38mm pistoned caliper that'll take a ventrd disc as hopefully
the 257mm solid disc is just a stop-gap. Good point about the levering forces and material, all are been considered. 
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britishtrident
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| posted on 25/4/12 at 06:56 AM |
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Looking at the Brakes Int online shop it shows the Monte fitted with the same pressure regulator in the rear brake line as the FWD Beta.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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Nickp
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| posted on 25/4/12 at 07:26 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
Looking at the Brakes Int online shop it shows the Monte fitted with the same pressure regulator in the rear brake line as the FWD Beta.
I'm not aware of any pressure regulator on the Monte. There's certainly no mechanical item that'd work off the rear suspension to
limit it as it rises to prevent lock up.
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jimgiblett
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| posted on 25/4/12 at 08:57 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
MG TF Rear Calipers are 38mm bore for 10mm discs.
One thing to watch out for if the discs require the calipers to be spaced out from the brakets in addition to shear force because moving the
caliper outboard creates a lever which causes an increased torue to be generated which tries to twist the calliper bracket off its
mountings
As to making the calliper braket out of "alloy" there are hundreds of grades of aluminium alloys some of which are as soft as toffee
especially when subject to heat so unless you seek advice on the metalurgy and do some calcs it would be a safer bet for you to use steel.
I used 6082 - T6 for my calliper adapters. This was recommended as suitable. My adaptors are pretty chunky though
Always wanted a Monte in my stable
- Jim
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Nickp
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| posted on 25/4/12 at 09:31 AM |
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Cool, cheers fella. I've just got a 2.5" x 3/8" x 12" bar in 6082 for £6 from a local stockholders
Let the drilling commence!!
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owelly
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| posted on 25/4/12 at 09:58 AM |
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If you're tapping the ally, may I suggest drilling the tapping hole slightly undersize to make sure you get a full thread? So for M10x1.5,
instead of using a 8.5mm drill, use a 21/64". Plenty of cutting juice and lots of elbow grease....
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
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rachaeljf
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| posted on 25/4/12 at 10:25 AM |
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I'm presently looking at brake upgrades too for my X1/9s, which have the same layout as the Monte. The problem we have is the need for more
equal braking effort front and rear because of the mid engine layout, compared to the FWD cars we are trying to source our budget brake upgrades
from.
At the front I have got 257x20 discs (Alfa 155/Punto/Brava) with matching Alfa 155 Girling calipers/carriers. These were a direct bolt-on with 5 mm
spacers.
At the back I'm looking at 257x12 discs (again from Alfa 155/Punto lesser models) with Girling 38 mm piston rear calipers from the old
Croma/Thema/Alfa 164. The tricky bit is the adapter brackets. I have to space the calipers forward 6mm, radially 17mm and go from 100mm c/c to 90mm
c/c holes. The close hole centres means that the lugs on the hub and caliper carriers interfere with the opposing fixing bolts, needing some milling
done to make a suitable bracket.
If you want to stay with the Bendix seizing calipers at the rear, 38 mm piston versions are available from certain Lada models. This is a popular x1/9
upgrade to give a bit more rear bias.
Another thought I had was to use 257x20 discs and suitable calipers same as the front, and add a spot caliper for the handbrake, perhaps mounting off
the chunky steering arm coming off the rear of the hub carrier.
If you can go bigger still (e.g. 16" wheels), the lug-bolt interference problems go away - on my V6 X1/9 I have 304x28 discs with the infamous
screeching Brembos at the front and 284x22 discs with Audi TT/Golf 4 Girling handbrake calipers at the back.
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rj
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| posted on 25/4/12 at 12:08 PM |
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if you need anything milling your welcome to pop over, I am only in Mexborough. I have always liked Monte Carlo's, remember lusting over one
when i was 15 !
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Nickp
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| posted on 25/4/12 at 02:06 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by rj
if you need anything milling your welcome to pop over, I am only in Mexborough. I have always liked Monte Carlo's, remember lusting over one
when i was 15 !
Ta, I'll bear that in mind
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Nickp
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| posted on 25/4/12 at 02:09 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by owelly
If you're tapping the ally, may I suggest drilling the tapping hole slightly undersize to make sure you get a full thread? So for M10x1.5,
instead of using a 8.5mm drill, use a 21/64". Plenty of cutting juice and lots of elbow grease....
Noted 'Drilling/Tapping Guru'
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Nickp
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| posted on 25/4/12 at 03:19 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by rachaeljf
I'm presently looking at brake upgrades too for my X1/9s, which have the same layout as the Monte. The problem we have is the need for more
equal braking effort front and rear because of the mid engine layout, compared to the FWD cars we are trying to source our budget brake upgrades
from.
At the front I have got 257x20 discs (Alfa 155/Punto/Brava) with matching Alfa 155 Girling calipers/carriers. These were a direct bolt-on with 5 mm
spacers.
At the back I'm looking at 257x12 discs (again from Alfa 155/Punto lesser models) with Girling 38 mm piston rear calipers from the old
Croma/Thema/Alfa 164. The tricky bit is the adapter brackets. I have to space the calipers forward 6mm, radially 17mm and go from 100mm c/c to 90mm
c/c holes. The close hole centres means that the lugs on the hub and caliper carriers interfere with the opposing fixing bolts, needing some milling
done to make a suitable bracket.
If you want to stay with the Bendix seizing calipers at the rear, 38 mm piston versions are available from certain Lada models. This is a popular x1/9
upgrade to give a bit more rear bias.
Another thought I had was to use 257x20 discs and suitable calipers same as the front, and add a spot caliper for the handbrake, perhaps mounting off
the chunky steering arm coming off the rear of the hub carrier.
If you can go bigger still (e.g. 16" wheels), the lug-bolt interference problems go away - on my V6 X1/9 I have 304x28 discs with the infamous
screeching Brembos at the front and 284x22 discs with Audi TT/Golf 4 Girling handbrake calipers at the back.
Interesting stuff indeed Your front solution sounds similar to what I'm aiming for but I just happen to be using a Ford caliper. I'd be
interested to see photos if you only needed a 5mm spacer to fit them, top stuff!!
I know the std rear calipers aren't the best but they're pretty compact and light. If well maintained they should still offer decent
service although the pad area may be small compared to others (I haven't actually compared them to others). If I get the 257's all round
(vented front / solid rear) and am happy with their performance then I may look for a more modern caliper for the rear.
[Edited on 26/4/12 by Nickp]
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Nickp
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| posted on 25/4/12 at 08:36 PM |
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Well, that was a frustrating evening!!
I based my calculations on internet data about the discs. It stated the Monte ones were 50mm high and my new Punto ones were 40mm. This gave me a nice
round 10mm to make my bracket from and everything would fall into place. My new discs arrived today and I got a nice piece of 6082 alloy and set about
making the bracket. Spent all evening cutting / drilling / tapping, and I was quite pleased with the end result I trial fitted the bracket and
caliper carrier onto the hub and all was well until I tried to fit the new disc. Turns out the Monte disc is 46mm high not 50mm which throws the
caliper carrier 4mm out of line!! All is not lost though, I'm going to start all over again but do the bracket in 6mm steel instead!!
[Edited on 26/4/12 by Nickp]
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froggy
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| posted on 25/4/12 at 08:48 PM |
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cheer up nick , you should see the pile of stuff ive made and had to bin on my car
[IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/froggy_0[IMG]
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Nickp
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| posted on 25/4/12 at 08:53 PM |
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I know, it's all part of the 'fun'!!
And I've now got a nice shiny ally template to work from
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owelly
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| posted on 25/4/12 at 09:11 PM |
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When faced with a similar problem making the mounts for my mates rally car, I plopped the ally in the lathe and faced a few mm off. Would that make
your mounts fit?
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
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Nickp
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| posted on 25/4/12 at 09:15 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by owelly
When faced with a similar problem making the mounts for my mates rally car, I plopped the ally in the lathe and faced a few mm off. Would that make
your mounts fit?
It would mate, but if I'm going down to 6mm then I think it really needs to be in steel. It's a nice compact bracket and would've
been fine in 10mm ally, but never mind.
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Nickp
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| posted on 27/4/12 at 05:01 PM |
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I've reverted to 6mm steel and got a 2ft bar of 6x50mm for £3 from a local engineers
Got a go at it this morning-
Here's the discs for comparison-
Managed to turn this into this-
Because of the closeness of the hole I had trim the point off the bolt head once it was torqued and loctited in place-
And a bit more trimming for clearance-
And all in place :clap:
Just need to do the other side before I can go for a road test.
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