Cheffy
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| posted on 9/10/02 at 11:12 PM |
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4x4 Uprights & Fiesta balljoints
Can anybody confirm for me whether Fiesta Mk3 bottom ball joints fit the bottom of Sierra Xr4x4 front uprights. The usual Maxi or Cortina ones won't
'cos of the 4x4's pinch bolt setup to allow for the limited space due to the front driveshafts. I'm sure I read somwhere on here that the Fiesta
BJ's were the way to go, but I spent about 2 hours last night going through previous posts to no avail!!!
Also, I gather the standard Sierra upright inserts from Lolocost/MK don't fit the top of the 4x4 uprights either. If this is the case, does anybody
make inserts that do fit, or is the only option to fabricate an insert from the old McPherson strut?
Thanks in advance for any help,
Mart.
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ewanspence
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| posted on 10/10/02 at 11:52 AM |
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I chopped up the lower control arm from the Sierra to make the bottom ball joint. Had to drill 2 holes through it to allow for attaching it to the
lower wishbone.
I used the old mcpherson strut to make my own insets, also made the tappers hole to accept the transif balljoint.
theres pictures on my site showing what was done. It ain't pretty but cost me nothing which ties in with my full ethos of building a unique car, that
is reasonably quick with 4 wheel drive.
Ewan.
Visit the MegaGrip site :-
http://www.geocities.com/ewanspence/
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James
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 posted on 10/10/02 at 03:13 PM |
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Cheffy,
I think it was me who is to blame for the Fiesta BJ post. I think we're out of luck on this one- I took my 2WD Sierra hub into the motor factors and
tried Fiesta BJ's from both MK2s and MK3 Fiestas. Neither the XR2i (three hole) nor the standard twon hole BJ would fit.
The reason I thought they might fit was that looking at my girlfriends Fiesta they looked about right. What's confused me is that none of the BJs at
the motor factors looked anything like my Girlfriends ones- so maybe she has an odd car!
Cheers,
James
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Cheffy
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| posted on 10/10/02 at 04:27 PM |
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Thanks for the response Guys.
Ewan, loads of interesting stuff on your site. As a 4x4 builder I'll be a regular visitor to compare notes. Very early days for me at the minute but
I'll post pictures as I go. Looks like the chopped control arm mod could be the way to go if nothing else comes up.
James, just been going back through more earlier posts to see if I could find anything else and found this: if you look at Ewan's post on 18/10/01
(Running Gear/4x4 drivetrain from Sierra xr4x4, it's the very last but one post on page 9!) there's a response from EA82T that says that the Fiesta
Mk3 and Escort Mk5 don't have a taper ball joint but a pinch bolt arrangement, this sounds very similar to the set up on the 4x4 uprights. Do you
think there is some confusion because of the difference between the 2wd and 4wd Sierra uprights. As I understand it the 2wd Sierra upright has a
tapered hole for the bottom ball joint (albeit not the right size for the Cortina one), where as the 4wd hole is a straight cylinder profile with the
pinch bolt to hold things in place instead of the nut on top of the ball joint spindle. Did any of the ball joints you looked at at the motor factors
sound as though they might fit the 4x4 uprights. I'll post a couple of pictures in the photo archive if the wife hasn't taken the digital camera to
her sisters with her!!
I'll take a trip to the motor factor near me tomorrow and see what they say. I'll let you know if I come up with anything.
Cheers for now, Mart.
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Cheffy
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| posted on 10/10/02 at 06:36 PM |
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Ok, found the camera, photo's uploaded,
Cheers,
Mart
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 10/10/02 at 06:48 PM |
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i wouldnt use fiesta bottom joints. They are only coping with 'tie' loads.
The cortina joints are built to take a pulling load.
On a fiesta, the macphereson strut takes the weight load. On a locost its the bottom joint.
atb
steve
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theconrodkid
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| posted on 10/10/02 at 07:48 PM |
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try escort mk5 bj,s,they are larger in diameter 
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theconrodkid
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| posted on 10/10/02 at 07:49 PM |
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ps threw one in the bin this morning,ill dig it out morrow and measure it,you measure the hole in bottom of your hub 
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Liam
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| posted on 10/10/02 at 09:03 PM |
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Hi Cheffy
Ooh another 4x4 builder. There'll be enough to start our own racing series soon - rallying of course he he
I'd also be very interested to know if any bj's fit our 4x4 uprights. I suppose I could go down my local motor factors with my uprights tomorrow.
Hmmm. The other option is to get them from Dax - they have some specially made for their Rush Quadra 4x4 kit. Dax parts and Locost dont exactly go
hand in hand though - they're about 90 odd quid for the pair  .
As for the top inserts, I spoke to Martin Keenan at a show and he said he'd be happy to do one-offs - dunno how much he'd charge mind. Shouldn't
be too hard to make your own, or speak to Dax if you're rich.
So what sort of stage are you at Cheffy? Are you gonna be another 4x4 builder to pip me to the post? What are you doing about the front prop shaft I
wonder?
Well that's enough for now...
Good luck,
Liam
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 10/10/02 at 09:33 PM |
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nice to see you back liam.....you faded away a bit there !
atb
steve
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Liam
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| posted on 10/10/02 at 09:52 PM |
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Hi Steve - nice to know you care!
Well I had to build my bedroom in my new house (at the back of the garage!), then I had to fix my 205 twice (thats gearbox out twice in 10 miles, the
ungrateful French piece of sh*t). Then I found myself experiencing some unforseen Jaguar ownership. Oh yes the boys of the family now have a series
III 4.2 XJ6 to play with after I sucessfully got it through its MOT - first time!
But this week I have actually been in the garage!! My chassis is now almost done (tacked) and has a diff sitting in either end on bits of wood. But
I've now ran out of money just as I am comming to need ball joints, a few rose joints and some shocks. Isn't that always the way.
Anyway - aren't you on the road yet?
Liam
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Cheffy
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| posted on 11/10/02 at 04:13 PM |
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Hi All,
Have put photo of 4x4 ball joint in archive. Diameter is 0.67 inches (sorry, have only got imperial Vernier callipers!) In light of Steve's warning
about the strength of the Fiesta ball joint (thanks Steve!), would the Escort ball joint be okay (assuming it fits) or does the Escort use McPherson
struts as well.
Hi Liam, I'm just tacking up the chassis at the minute. Donor all stripped and parts waiting to be cleaned. Have set up a simple web site at
http://mysite.freeserve.com/cheffy
Have got a bit further than the pictures on the site. Will try and get it updated over the weekend. Was goin' to follow Ewan's path with the front
prop shaft. I wouldn't worry about me beating you to the finishing post though, I'm reckoning somewhere 12-18 months to finish. So is it just the
you, Ewan and me goin' the 4x4 route at the moment or are you aware of anyone else?
Cheers for now,
Mart
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theconrodkid
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| posted on 11/10/02 at 06:06 PM |
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escort and fiesta bj,s are 17mm,mondeo ones are bigger,19mm i think
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fastenuff
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 posted on 11/10/02 at 06:14 PM |
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maybe I'm missing something here but why don't you weld the ring (short bit of tube holding the lowerballjoint) to the lowerwishbone and use the
standard 4x4 balljoint?
Ingmar
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Liam
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| posted on 11/10/02 at 06:52 PM |
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0.67" is roughly 17.018mm by my calculations, so looks like the Festa/Escort bjs may fit as long as they're the right shape. Might go and have a
look tomorrow at my local motor factors.
There'll be a pretty large pulling load on the bottom bj of even a mcpherson strut car, assuming the anti roll bar attatches to the lower track
control arm - which it usually does. So any such bj's ought to be designed to take a pulling load I would have thought - but don't quote me on
that. I'm OK cos I'm using inboard shocks operated by the top wishbones, so my lower joint takes no pulling load at all.
Cheffy - as far as I'm aware there is me, you, Ewan and some other guy who is not on this list (i think) - he put an Autocad drawing of his chassis
in the files area of the yahoo list which is quite useful cos it has nice models of the sierra 4x4 uprights and rear diff, and I'm hoping the
distances between hubs etc are correct so I can make my wishbones the right length (I measured my sierra before I cut it up then lost the measurements
- doh!). There is also Simon Rook (aka EA82T) who is making a 4x4 chassis based on a Locost which will eventually become a ford RS200 replica -
haven't heard from him for a while mind and his website hasn't been updated in a year.
Liam
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Liam
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| posted on 11/10/02 at 06:58 PM |
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Jesus I need to change my World Cup themed avatar. I dont even like football.
EDIT: That's better
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fastenuff
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| posted on 11/10/02 at 07:06 PM |
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ewwwwwwwww
what did I write this time, that is what llcst seem to do oops. I seem to remember from some hot rod related shops that there are screw in type of
joints that are designed to be used in the named joints. If only i could remember the us site that sold them. Willwood or alike??
Ingmar
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 11/10/02 at 07:18 PM |
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quote:
Anyway - aren't you on the road yet?
Liam
I wish.
when you deviate from the book like we both have, expect mutcho work.
I havnt done nowt for 5 weeks cos i have been laying foundations and building an attatched shed to the back of my garage. Another 8 ft square to work
in which is massive when you have a single garage full of car and cant walk two paces.
The car is a complete rolling chassis, like the pics in the pic section of 5 months back. Its now got the sides panelled and the 'morgan' rear
fashioned from a alu sheet with a lot of woodedn jigs. Has a real boot with a lining. Have to make up a fibreglass boot lid (i know morgans dont have
one, but this is only a style guide).
I still have to align my suspension, pipe up the front brakes and remake my top wishbones.
Then i have the serious job of all the complicated bits like doors, the morgan type front, and running boards.
Newark would be nice as a target, but im not holding my breath. The shed could help a lot tho.
atb
steve
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 11/10/02 at 07:25 PM |
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quote:
There'll be a pretty large pulling load on the bottom bj of even a mcpherson strut car, assuming the anti roll bar attatches to the lower track
control arm - which it usually does. So any such bj's ought to be designed to take a pulling load I would have thought - but don't quote me on
that.
Sorry, I just did!
The load will be a sideways load in all directions. The roll bar will cause a rearwards load, (apart from the smaller forces caused by the bar pulling
the wheel down when cornering) and cornering and braking will cause loading in the other sideways directions.
I cant see any case where a mcpherson strut type lower ball joint will take a load thats trying to pull the stud in an upwards direction. All the
WEIGHT goes into the strut. This leaves i would expect a ZERO static load on the bottom joint. Only sideways forces affect the bottom joint in any
major way.
As amateur car builders, we have no idea what the load rating might be of an unknown joint used in a non std application. The cortina joint is being
used in the way it was designed. Most modern mcpherson lower joints are just not taking anythink like the pulling loads.
Its true our upper joint is a non std application of a track rod end. However, its been tested at the risk of others. Do you want to be a tester of a
new concept?
I would not feel confident in a part of which I had no idea what the load rating or safety factor was in my application. A wheel detatching in a
corner could be a real life shortening experince.
atb
steve
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johnston
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| posted on 11/10/02 at 07:53 PM |
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stephen i can see your point but all ball joints are made the same way now just some larger than others
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 11/10/02 at 10:01 PM |
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A cortina joint is a pretty hefty thing.....the ones that were on my granada donor (like the sierras) were very much smaller.
That bears you out - id expect the load capability to be a lot less.....which bears me out too!
atb
steve
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Cheffy
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| posted on 11/10/02 at 10:39 PM |
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Conrodkid, thanks for the measurements. Do the Escort and Mondeo both use McPherson struts, only I'm now concerned with Steve's argument for not
using balljoints in situations where they have not been tried and tested. This rules out modifying the original 4x4 joints, which in turn poses the
question 'what do we use?' If the Escort or Mondeo balljoints are suitable then that would be the obvious way to go.
Thanks again for all the help,
Mart.
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Liam
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| posted on 12/10/02 at 12:41 AM |
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I'm pretty sure the Escort and Mondeo are McPherson Strut - aren't pretty much all cars like that McPherson strut nowadays? So any of those would
be 'used in a situation they weren't designed for'.
The twin bike engined 4WD Tiger uses VW golf front uprights and, I assume, the lower bj. The golf is Maccy strut so Tiger must have thought it would
be OK. I guess Ewan thinks its OK to use the sierra lower BJ. I think Stevo underestimates the pull on the joints due to the roll bar in cornering
but he's right it certainly wont be as much as the suspension load of even a light car like a locost. But they will definately be designed to handle
some pulling load - why not see if Ford will tell you how much. Or buy an escort bj and see how many double decker busses you can pick up with it
before it breaks?
I guess the best option for piece of mind would be to get the bjs from Dax that they have specially made for them - but like I said they aint cheap.
But how much is your ass worth to you etc etc.
I'm OK cos my lower bjs dont take the load - my transit track rod ends do! Luckily my mate has tried and tested that one, as have Sylva (assuming
they use something like a transit track rod end on their top wishbones) and lots of other people, so I'm not gonna loose any sleep
Well I'll leave you with that load of waffle. Good night. This Wing Commander film is a load of bollox.
Liam
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theconrodkid
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| posted on 12/10/02 at 11:40 AM |
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they are all mc pherson strut,worked on a renault kangoo today,ideal bottom wishbone with 2 bolt fixing balljoint,fiesta could be made to fit by the
looks of it or measure its pin and see it that fits,id use it but its french
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Mark Allanson
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| posted on 12/10/02 at 06:33 PM |
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I am bit confused by all this about the bottom ball joint taking no load and the strut taking it all. When the car is static or in uniform motion,
yes, this is correct. The difference is when the car is under braking or acceleration. No car on earth can accelerate faster than it can decelerate
and ALL the braking force acts on the lower balljoint on a McP system wheras on a double wish bone system, the load is shared between the upper and
lower joints. Work it out for yourselves, which balljoints have the greater load coefficients.
Also the inertia of a 950cc fiesta (approx 875kg)braking from seventy, will be more that a 500kg locost braking from ninety. I also aked a QH rep at
work about the safety threshold of a standard balljoint, he said they fail at about 7 times their design load.
Basically I aint losing any sleep about balljoint loadings!
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