ainsml
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| posted on 24/9/03 at 09:43 AM |
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Cheap Coilovers!!!!!!
At donnington kit car show i was talking to dampertech that sell the gaz stuff and was wondering wheather to buy some for my locost but i
didn't. I have just rung dave at damperetch and placed a order for some he has reduced the price for 4 dampers and springs to £250 all
in!! that is well cheap for some suspension, as i remember he had a offer running for £270 in kit car magazine.
I hope this helps people that are building theirs on a budget. like me!!!
[Edited on 24/9/03 by ainsml]
sweet child of mine
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dozracing
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| posted on 1/10/03 at 06:08 PM |
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Excuse me for the blatant add, but, the shock kit i sell is still cheaper at £220 all in!
Kind regards,
Darren
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ainsml
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| posted on 1/10/03 at 06:43 PM |
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But do your dampers carry a 3 year warrenty and are fully rebuildable. also they are not damping adjustable so how do you cater for the different
engines other people may want to run !!
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Stu16v
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| posted on 1/10/03 at 07:16 PM |
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Dont just build it.....make it!
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JoelP
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| posted on 1/10/03 at 07:18 PM |
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pays your money and takes your choice i guess. if mine turn out to need more damping i'll just wedge a few dead cats into the spring.
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RoadkillUK
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| posted on 1/10/03 at 08:48 PM |
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Why dead ones ? 
Roadkill - Lee
www.bradford7.co.uk
Latest Picture (14 Sept 2014)
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JoelP
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| posted on 1/10/03 at 09:25 PM |
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i got another one the other day. such an odd feeling that bump as you bounce over them...
should teach them the green cross code...
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craig1410
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| posted on 1/10/03 at 10:25 PM |
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I have no connection with Darren at GTS (dozracing) but can vouch for the quality of his damper and spring kit. They have adjustable seats which will
cater for differing engines etc and can accept different springs for extreme cases. I have adjustable dampers (Koni's) on my road car and have
never changed them from the default setting as it works just fine. Just one more variable to get wrong IMHO, unless you are into serious racing and
have the experience and equipment (data loggers etc) to tune the suspension properly.
HTH,
Craig.
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JoelP
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| posted on 1/10/03 at 10:31 PM |
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thats true, it'd take all day to work out where to put the cats, how many, how long dead etc. not a very precise science i suspect. i got some
of darrens the other day, no mention in the instructions about cats or dogs.
i reckon they'll do fine as they are.
if my ball joint ever arrives then i'll have the front end bouncing, eh doz?!? lol
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nick205
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| posted on 2/10/03 at 11:47 AM |
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JoelP
Do you have a good close up pic of the GTS shocks?
Cheers
Nick
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nick205
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| posted on 2/10/03 at 11:50 AM |
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Also has anyone got a car on the road using GTS shocks?
Impressions?
Cheers
Nick
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craig1410
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| posted on 2/10/03 at 12:10 PM |
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Nick,
Take a look on my website in the June 2003 section and you will see three photo's from various angles and also other pictures of the units on
the car. I've not got it on the road yet as you will see but for road use I very much doubt that there is much to choose from a damper
perspective anyway. The adjustable seats and ability to change the springs should be good enough for most people (IMHO of course)
By the way, in case some folks haven't noticed yet, you can get my website by clicking the "www" button below this posting.
Cheers,
Craig.
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Simon
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| posted on 2/10/03 at 12:28 PM |
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Gotta agree with Craig.
I've got Darrens GTS shocks and am pleased with the finish.
Car not on road yet, but as far adjustment is concerned - my bike has about 1/2 million different settings and I've left it as it came out of
the box. And it's fine.
Craig, how's the build? Your site is a little behind the times
ATB
Simon
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nick205
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| posted on 2/10/03 at 01:33 PM |
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Craig
Good pics and the shocks do look well made.
I think a purchase may be made!
Cheers
Nick
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Stu16v
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| posted on 2/10/03 at 04:43 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Simon
Gotta agree with Craig.
car not on road yet, but as far adjustment is concerned - my bike has about 1/2 million different settings and I've left it as it came out of
the box. And it's fine.
Very true Simon, but there again, your bike doesnt come with engine options that can double in weight (BEC to V8), different suspension
geometry/wishbone lengths, different rate springs, etc etc. Remember, the bike settings are there primarily to set the bike up for rider preference,
NOT to get the bike to handle in the first place. I am not suggesting that a car will have adverse handling with unadjustable damping shocks, but with
all the variables that is a Locost, I dont think a "one shock fits all" is the way to go IMHO.
HTH Stu.
Dont just build it.....make it!
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RoadkillUK
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| posted on 2/10/03 at 06:11 PM |
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I've got the GTS shock (Dozracing), I bought them before the big price drop and I'm still impressed with the quality. My car isn't
on the road yet so I can't really say what they are like on the road.
I have pics of them on my website if you care to take a look.
Roadkill - Lee
www.bradford7.co.uk
Latest Picture (14 Sept 2014)
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dozracing
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| posted on 2/10/03 at 08:50 PM |
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Hi guys,
Thanx for the votes of confidence! Just when i was getting really down about the long nights and threatening bank letters that it takes to invest in
and build these damn shock kits, at least i know its appreciated when people eventually get them.
I know it fairly obvious that im massively biased towards promoting them, but, i honestly believe that for the majority of people they are a better
bet than the normal opposition.
I don't offer a 3 year warranty and they are not rebuildable for the simple reason that i don't need to. There is nothing about them to go
wrong that will need them to be rebuildable. They are made by an OEM supplier who will expect them to last 100,000 miles or so on a Mercedes or BMW
road car. They are made to my specifications and the mounting details and spring mounts are my design to allow them to fit Locosts. The damper valving
is derived by me by road testing Locosts and using my experience. The same experience in dampers that the likes of M. Schumacher have put to good use
in Grand Prixs.
Sorry for sounding like a broken record to those who get involved in these threads each time it comes up.
The Gaz shocks you have will be ok for a couple of clicks either side of baseline for your car. Basically they have a massive range of adjustment so
they can be used on lots of different cars. The adjustment is not fine enough for you to effectively fine tune your car for driving style etc.. If you
want that level of performance and adjustment you should go for a damper costing around £200 each from a high performance damper manufacturer. Also
you might want to look at a well used Gaz, Avo or Spax steel damper after about 6 months or so you see the old red devil coming through and sticking
your threaded collar. Whereas an aluminium bodied damper or one with an aluminium thread will not get this problem.
Also after the same sort of time period see whether you'll still be able to turn the adjuster knob, my bet is it'll be jammed up too.
Most of these comments are based on experience with road car dampers over the last 8 years. The Gaz and Avos use common components with the Spax
damper. They all stem from the same design as anyone who knows the life story of each of these companies will tell you. In fact to add to it the new
aluminium damper that MK sells (Protec) is the next development in the Spax story. I work day to day with the ex technical director of Spax and we
share stories every day of the problems encountered with this damper architecture. Its the fundamental reason why Nitron has stopped making adjustable
twin tube dampers and geared up to move into the mono tube gas damper market. The product is fundamentally much more reliable for road use and has
much better performance characteristics.
ALl that said if to sleep at night you feel that you simply must have an adjustable (damping) damper then the Gaz is the option to go for. Its almost
identical (you can swap bits between them) to the Avo and Spax yet you get them for a much better price.
Dave at Dampertech must be pulling his hair out, i know how much he pays for them and at £250 delivered he is never going to be a wealthy man.
Kind regards,
Darren
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brown paper bag
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| posted on 3/10/03 at 04:38 PM |
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As dampers seem to be the topic of the day I thought I would chip in with my contribution to try and dispel some of the c**p that is being written.
I have worked for the past 30 years for major car manufacturers. A good proportion of that time has been spent in chassis engineering particularly in
ride and handling.
When developing new vehicles all car manufacturers spend a considerable amount of time and money in developing damper and spring packages in order to
optimise each vehicle. This work often takes 2 or more years. The result is that for every model the damper has a specific damper characteristic
known, as a “setting” this setting is specific to the spring rate. For example the BMW 3 series has over 20 different damper settings covering the
model range.
It is impossible to have one damper setting that will cover all the locost variants. Adjustable dampers were developed by SPAX in order that
individual could have the opportunity to adjust his dampers to match different suspensions and driving styles. For example I have seen spring rates
used on locost cars between 225 & 400 LBS. A set up for road use is different to track use. In my opinion anyone using fixed damping would be
unable to achieve the optimum performance given the variants in spring rates, engine weights and suspension geometry etc.
Without the ability to adjust the damping you will never know if you have achieved the optimum ride and handling package for your vehicle. I tend to
agree with stu16V & Sid Bridge that adjustable dampers at lease give you the options. Ask Robin Hood owners who have fitted fixed damping “Zeemer
rides” to save money how many of them have eventually had to buy adjustables. I am not bias towards any of the damper manufacturers as I have used
them all in the past. If Dampertech are doing a set of Gaz for £250 inclusive seems a very good price to me but in the end you pay your money and take
your choice.
I am not bias towards any of the damper manufacturers as I have used them all in the past. This is my personal opinion and you will make up your own
minds!
Cheers
brown paper bag!
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craig1410
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| posted on 3/10/03 at 08:59 PM |
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Syd/BPG,
Fair comments and quite enlightening so thanks for that. I agree that having lots of adjustment can be a good thing but I'm sure you guys will
agree that it can also be a bad thing. I'd be one of the first to say that my experience is pretty limited when it comes to building cars
despite having a reasonable understanding of the basic principles. Therefore if I was asked what spring rate and damping rate I wanted then I
wouldn't have known where to start.
I might do a quick calculation and divide my car's corner weight by the number of inches of travel between full droop and ride height and hey
presto I have the spring rating (maybe...) God knows how I would calculate the required damper valving...
My point is that Darren of GTS has designed a coilover unit for the Locost market which looks good, is well made, seems to be popular and is
reasonably priced. Yes my Locost is non-standard (isn't everyone's in some way) but it isn't going to be a million miles away from a
standard Locost in terms of the fundamentals. Thus I believe that Darren's best efforts will be much better than mine when it comes to
damper/spring selection. That lets me worry about the other 9999 things which stand between me and a road-legal car. Maybe 12 months AFTER I get the
car on the road I might consider how I can improve it but for now I believe that I have received a very good value set of coilovers and am more than
happy.
Cheers,
Craig.
ps. Syd, I don't want to appear defensive as I agree with what you have said above and I think you will most likely agree with my reasoning here
too. I just wanted to explain my reasoning a bit in the hope that any newbies reading this might gain some insight into the compromises which we often
have to make when building a Locost and not get bogged down with detail at too early a stage. "Paralysis By Analysis" as one of my old
school teachers used to say.
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Stu16v
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| posted on 3/10/03 at 09:09 PM |
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quote:
I don't offer a 3 year warranty and they are not rebuildable for the simple reason that i don't need to. There is nothing about
them to go wrong that will need them to be rebuildable. They are made by an OEM supplier who will expect them to last 100,000 miles or so on a
Mercedes or BMW road car.
Impressive. I doubt many Locosters will ever dream of doing that kind of mileage. However, the six months a year lay-up that a lot of cars get is
likely to play havoc on any make/design of shocker. And I have also found 'rebuildability' to be handy in the unfortunate event of
a 'coming-off'- with a rebuild costing approx half as much as a new shocker....
quote:
They are made to my specifications and the mounting details and spring mounts are my design to allow them to fit Locosts.
A 'book' Locost, I presume?
quote:
The damper valving is derived by me by road testing Locosts and using my experience.
Do you offer different valving for different engines, IRS, live axle, bigger cars, etc, etc?
quote:
The same experience in dampers that the likes of M. Schumacher have put to good use in Grand Prixs.
Err, Mr SquareJaw has adjustable dampers....In fact, with adjustments for pretty much everything....and they are designed for just one car....
quote:
The Gaz shocks you have will be ok for a couple of clicks either side of baseline for your car. Basically they have a massive range of
adjustment so they can be used on lots of different cars.
Now we are getting somewhere....
quote:
The adjustment is not fine enough for you to effectively fine tune your car for driving style etc..
The adjustment probably wont be perfect, but it will be in the ballpark, and necessary if someone has built a 'different' car......
quote:
If you want that level of performance and adjustment you should go for a damper costing around £200 each from a high performance damper
manufacturer.
Any level of adustment is better than nothing if you building a car with a V8, or a BEC, or IRS, etc etc...
quote:
Also you might want to look at a well used Gaz, Avo or Spax steel damper after about 6 months or so you see the old red devil coming through
and sticking your threaded collar.
You are welcome to look at my Avo's, which have been in active use on my car since April, and in all weathers. No sign yet......
quote:
Whereas an aluminium bodied damper or one with an aluminium thread will not get this problem.
Thats right. You get white devil instead. And that can be even worse to move by all accounts......
quote:
Also after the same sort of time period see whether you'll still be able to turn the adjuster knob, my bet is it'll be jammed up
too.
If in the unfortunate event it has siezed, it least it will probably be in the position where the shocker obviously works best (because you havent
been moving it.....)
Darren, as I have stated before, I have absolutely nothing against your shockers whatsoever, and as already been stated, people are more than happy
with the quality of the product. But some of the claims and comparisons are dreams TBH.
There is room for your shockers on the market Darren. But leave the better shockers (IMO, for what I want out of the car, that is the best handling
car I can get for my money) for their slice of the market. The product is a no-frills value-for-money product, with something less adjustment wise to
worry about. And there aint nowt wrong with that. But if builders want to make the most of their cars handling, they need the ability to play with
spring heights/rates, and damper settings.......
Dont just build it.....make it!
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craig1410
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| posted on 3/10/03 at 09:19 PM |
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You know, this debate is far too civilised and constructive with no apparent hostility and far too much politeness.
Someone give Rorty a shout and we can see if you can get him and Syd to start another classic argument (sorry, debate)
Only kidding!
Cheers,
Craig.
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Stu16v
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| posted on 4/10/03 at 12:28 AM |
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Sorry Craig (et al) but it does peeve me to see folk give duff info on rival products to try and generate sales, who themselves seem to be misinformed
on the basics of suspension requirements.
I have never designed a shock absorber in my life, but I do know that it is IMPOSSIBLE to have a shocker that will give the best performance, on all
of the variations of our cars. Period.
As stated earlier, manufacturers alter shocker valving for different variants of the same model! And yet the geometry of the suspension stays
equal. The difference in weight from basic to top flight model percentage wise is probably far less than the difference of the weight between lightest
and heaviest of locost variants. The suspension design is the same. And they assume Mr Average will be driving it, and for the majority of the models
at least, it will never be going anywhere near a race track.
30 sheets is a small sacrifice for a reasonable handling car, no matter how you have deviated from the book (as long as the other fundementals are
right, of course)......
Dont just build it.....make it!
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mackie
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| posted on 6/10/03 at 04:01 PM |
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Then again, the Rover V8 is no heavier than a Pinto...
What spring rates did you go for craig? Are the damper rates matched to the spring rates?
Have you done much since your last diary update, I'd be very keen to see how you are doing. We just got rid of our Sierra.. now to
"do" the cortina...
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craig1410
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| posted on 6/10/03 at 06:40 PM |
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My spring rates are 8 inch 275lb/in on the front and 7 inch 175lb/in on the back. The dampers are an unknown quantity to be honest but I am assured by
Darren at GTS that they are fine for the V8. I appreciate all that has been said on this matter and agree in principle that you can't get a
damper for all purposes but it will undoubtedly do fine to get the thing rolling. As you say the Rover V8 is lighter than a Pinto due to it being all
alloy.
I have made a good bit of progress since my last website update but most of it is invisible (seam welding, scavenging etc). I intend to update my
website after next weekend as I should have got all the other little jobs like replacing anti-freeze in my road car and stuff like that which has to
be done before winter sets in. Then hopefully I can start looking at the car seriously again... I should make a good start next Saturday when I should
be receiving my V8 engine
I also need to get my CAD design up to date so that I can design things before actually making them.
Cheers,
Craig.
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dozracing
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| posted on 6/10/03 at 08:17 PM |
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At the end of the day my shocks are to be the officially recommended shock kit in the 3rd edition of the book.
There is also a substantial section in there that details a test session where all the main suppliers products were tested (including AVO two way
aluminium bodied) back to back using an experienced test driver. The results are published in the book, and all i will say is that i wouldn't
make mention of it if mine hadn't come out very well in the results.
As an aise to all this chatter about everyones favourite subject (can a statistition figure out if there is another topic that receives more replies?)
i have been asked by Which Kit to do an article on shocks. As its not a Locost specific article i shall be keeping things more general and away from
the pros and cons of my shocks over others. I want to do it as an educational peice. Now all the articles i have written on the subject before have
been about racing dampers which in some respects is easier because everyone is only interested in outright performance.
As you are the types of people who read the kit car mags, what answers do you want to what questions? As yet i haven't read an article on shocks
in a kit car mag that really outlines how they work, what the terminology is etc.. So i guess i should start with that, but, then what?
Kind regards,
Darren
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