cd.thomson
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| posted on 1/4/09 at 02:17 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Staple ballsI demand undeniable proof, like the bible. 
 
Craig
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flak monkey
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| posted on 1/4/09 at 03:10 PM |
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Not much has been said about the fact that the average global temperature actually dropped last year and the next increase isn't predicted to
happen until something like 2012.
There was a rather good article in my IET (IMechE) mag a couple of months ago about it. Strange the mainstream press havent picked up that story....
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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Vindi_andy
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| posted on 1/4/09 at 03:11 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Staple balls
quote:
Originally posted by cd.thomson
http://royalsociety.org/page.asp?id=4761&gclid=CIGj7Mrtz5kCFQG7GgodnhCOuA
How about heavily peer reviewed, independent scientific opinion thats strictly regulated and represented by one of the most prestigious scientific
communities in the world - if we're playing the linking game?
[Edited on 1/4/09 by cd.thomson]
as you said, it's opinion, and we know all opinion pieces are tosh.
I demand undeniable proof, like the bible.
Opinions are like Bottoms.
Everyone has one,
Some are bigger than others and,
It can be rude to air them in public.
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Peteff
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| posted on 1/4/09 at 04:40 PM |
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quote:
Opinions are like Bottoms.
Everyone has one,
Some are bigger than others and,
It can be rude to air them in public.
And yours stinks and mine doesn't
I'll get my coat ( oh no I don't need it as it's warm out )
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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MikeR
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| posted on 1/4/09 at 04:43 PM |
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New Scientist had a very good set of articles about this a while ago, i'll try and find the web link. The best bit was the 50 global warming
myths. So for example, its not global warming its a natural cycle ..... and they had a link explaining that the planet does have natural cycles. Heck
in dickens time the thames use to freeze ..... except this is the warmest cycle ever and if you take historical data etc etc etc...
Basically debunks the "its not man made theories" and explains why they came about and why they are wrong. Amazing how many people are
prepared to say its not man made but refuse to read the articles.
(previous comments based on arguments with friends / work colleagues).
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Staple balls
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| posted on 1/4/09 at 04:48 PM |
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Got a link? that'd be interesting to read.
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MikeR
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| posted on 1/4/09 at 04:57 PM |
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Guide for the perplexed
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11462-climate-change-a-guide-for-the-perplexed.html
(can't find the page i wanted - i'll keep looking)
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Rob Palin
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| posted on 1/4/09 at 05:04 PM |
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There's also the FAQ for the IPCC report, which addresses some of the popular 'facts' like the volcanic eruption thing.
http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar4/wg1/ar4-wg1-faqs.pdf
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Dangle_kt
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| posted on 1/4/09 at 05:06 PM |
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I know that I do not understand science enough to comment conclusivly.
No one knows the truth, so I'm not going to call anyone for thinking something different to me.
Only thing I will say is that whether global warming is true or not, mankind has been ruining the planet for too long, with short sited, knee jerk,
greedy behavior. Maybe global warming is part of that, maybe it isn't, but our grandkids WILL pay the price when resources are gobbled up, vast
swathes of the planet suffer de-forrestation and soils are washed away leading to ir-repairable damage to the srea and species deminish.
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gazza285
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| posted on 1/4/09 at 05:38 PM |
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No matter what we do, life on Earth will continue, either with us or without us. The human herd could do with a bit of thinning out anyway.
DO NOT PUT ON KNOB OR BOLLOCKS!
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smart51
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| posted on 1/4/09 at 06:02 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
The planet has been cooling for the last 9 years in line with the solar cycle...nothing to do with Climate change nutsack
Can I use the word "disingenuous" to describe this remark? Global temperatures started to rise early in the 20th century, started to rise
quicker in the 80s and quicker still in the 90s peaking 9 years ago and have held all but steady for 9 years compared with 350 years of CET records
and other world temperature records, falling back only slightly from the peak. To say that global temperatures are falling is either an attempt to
defend an untenable position or a repeat of something you've heard.
If the levelling off is due to the solar cycle, should we expect temperatures to start rising again?
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smart51
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| posted on 1/4/09 at 06:07 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by gazza285
No matter what we do, life on Earth will continue, either with us or without us. The human herd could do with a bit of thinning out anyway.
An entirely acceptable position. The Earth will continue. Life with climate change will be more difficult for many, perhaps better for some. It is
a respectable political standpoint that we do nothing and bear the consequences. Brave, even, if you're prepared to be one of the victims.
Live near the sea do you? Want to move inland a bit?
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chrisg
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| posted on 1/4/09 at 07:00 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by cd.thomson
http://royalsociety.org/page.asp?id=4761&gclid=CIGj7Mrtz5kCFQG7GgodnhCOuA
How about heavily peer reviewed, independent scientific opinion thats strictly regulated and represented by one of the most prestigious scientific
communities in the world - if we're playing the linking game?
heres a more easily accessible link, please give it a read:
http://royalsociety.org/page.asp?id=6229
[Edited on 1/4/09 by cd.thomson]
The very fact that you can post those links and I can post the ones that I did shows that there is no consensus.
Where two opposing views exist the government will always pick the one that earns them the most money.
Our children are brainwashed at an early age about climate change, effectively adding to the effect that everyone who holds the contrary view of a
subject which is clearly not scientific fact, but a matter for debate is the bogie man and trying to kill everyone.
Would this be acceptable for any other scientific hypothesis? Why is possiblility taught and indeed accepted as fact?
When the evidence is in I'll make a decision.
Chris
Note to all: I really don't know when to leave well alone. I tried to get clever with the mods, then when they gave me a lifeline to see the
error of my ways, I tried to incite more trouble via u2u. So now I'm banned, never to return again. They should have done it years ago!
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smart51
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| posted on 1/4/09 at 07:39 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by chrisg
Our children are brainwashed at an early age about climate change, effectively adding to the effect that everyone who holds the contrary view of a
subject which is clearly not scientific fact, but a matter for debate is the bogie man and trying to kill everyone.
Would this be acceptable for any other scientific hypothesis? Why is possiblility taught and indeed accepted as fact?
You mean like evolution? Both Evolution and Climate Change are unproven, even unprovable to the highest principles unless you have several identical
planets and a couple of million years to do proper experiments. Both are widely but not universally accepted as probably true due to weight of
evidence rather than conclusive proof. Both are man-made theories made up to fit the available data as best it can be. Both are plausible. Both are
fiercely spread by their believers and anyone who dares disagree with either is deemed to be a heretic or a fool. Both have their desenters who find
faults with some of the "for" evidence and provide some counter evidence. In both cases the clear majority of evidence is for but in both
cases, just because a theroy fits the available data, it doesn't mean that it is the truth.
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chrisg
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| posted on 1/4/09 at 08:05 PM |
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It's an interesting point but the ratio of evidence in favour of evolution is probably 90/10 or more, with climate change it's much nearer
50/50.
Much of the "research" must be viewed skeptically, especially if it's sponsored by people with a specific axe to grind.(on both
sides)
I'd rather wait until there was a consensus before I threw the worlds resources at a problem which may or may not exist.
Chris
Note to all: I really don't know when to leave well alone. I tried to get clever with the mods, then when they gave me a lifeline to see the
error of my ways, I tried to incite more trouble via u2u. So now I'm banned, never to return again. They should have done it years ago!
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RK
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| posted on 2/4/09 at 12:10 AM |
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I know a guy who used to be a Rolls Royce dealer, who used to think the sun still didn't set on the British Empire (I won't say where he
lived), and everyone was a traitor etc etc. He clearly took a while to understand global economics, but guess what his boys sell now? You guessed it:
BMW's.
Get with the programme you guys. Just because you're building cars, doesn't make you experts on global anything, and just because your
cars pollute, doesn't make it a bad thing to make one.
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Staple balls
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| posted on 2/4/09 at 12:24 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by RK
Get with the programme you guys. Just because you're building cars, doesn't make you experts on global anything, and just because your
cars pollute, doesn't make it a bad thing to make one.
Wait.
What?
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RK
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| posted on 2/4/09 at 01:00 AM |
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I don't want to upset people, because it's all just a laugh on the internet, but this is an issue that affects us all.
Have you ever been to Banff and Jasper National Parks in Alberta? See how small the glaciers are compared to what they used to be? See the signs
showing where they used to be bigger? Ever been to Alaska? Ditto. North Pole/Arctic ice floes? Ditto. The St. Lawrence Seaway, not that far from me
now is open (free from ice) earlier and earlier every year. Insects originally from South Carolina can now live here. I live in a cold country getting
warmer. Fact.
Maybe because you live in a temperate climate that hardly changes from season to season, so you don't see these changes we do. This is a very
scary phenomenon that affects everyone.
You might not like the messenger because they are annoying, self righteous, pious, pompous, asses - say that one fast (Al Gore and the like) but that
doesn't make the message any less important.
[Edited on 2/4/09 by RK]
[Edited on 2/4/09 by RK]
[Edited on 2/4/09 by RK]
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Staple balls
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| posted on 2/4/09 at 01:27 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by RK
The flat earth people are wrong. The people who do not believe in global warming and man's contribution to it are wrong. These are facts. There
may be other factors but these are not contestable.
I can agree with you on the first point, absolutely, no doubt.
However, it's only the completely hatstand who still claim the flat earth stuff, we have solid, empirical evidence to disprove it. Also, IIRC
it wasn't that widely believed in the past either.
The situation with Climate Change©™ is that there's as much evidence for it as against it, while it's extremely likely that we have
something to do with it, it's basically impossible to judge how much with any real certainty.
Added to that there's fact that it has become an extremely political issue recently, which means lots more studies done on the subject, but if
the outcome doesn't suit someone's plans, it'll get swept under the carpet or they'll get discredited.
I'm personally sitting on the fence, but I'll pay a great deal more attention to the studies that don't just toe the line.
Saying that something that's currently unprovable is wrong outright shows as much closed-mindedness as the flat earth types, and religious
nuts.
Obviously, I choose to believe in evolution over creationism, as there's more proof for evolution.
I've seen genetic traits passed down and people with various genetic abnormalities. It's highly unlikely that a beardy bloke who lives
in space picked these things for each and every one of us.
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Staple balls
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| posted on 2/4/09 at 01:31 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by RK
I don't want to upset people, because it's all just a laugh on the internet, but this is an issue that affects us all.
Have you ever been to Banff and Jasper National Parks in Alberta? See how small the glaciers are compared to what they used to be? See the signs
showing where they used to be bigger? Ever been to Alaska? Ditto. North Pole/Arctic ice floes? Ditto. The St. Lawrence Seaway, not that far from me
now is open (free from ice) earlier and earlier every year. Insects originally from South Carolina can now live here. I live in a cold country getting
warmer. Fact.
Maybe because you live in a temperate climate that hardly changes from season to season, so you don't see these changes we do. This is a very
scary phenomenon that affects everyone.
You might not like the messenger because they are annoying, self righteous, pious, pompous, asses - say that one fast (Al Gore and the like) but that
doesn't make the message any less important.
I can't disagree with any of that.
I can however, ask for proof that it's humans that have caused this. And I'm pretty sure that's not possible yet, unless of course
you cherry-pick studies that support your claims, and that's not science, that's politics.
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RK
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| posted on 2/4/09 at 01:38 AM |
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Good point, but why take the chance when there is so much at stake and there are alternatives?
But also, being as good hypocrite as good as the next guy, I'm glad my car doesn't need Air Care when it gets on the road (that's my
attempt at humour there). It probably won't make it so it helps the environment by default.
[Edited on 2/4/09 by RK]
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Staple balls
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| posted on 2/4/09 at 01:58 AM |
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A great deal of the alternatives currently available aren't really that good;
Take energy efficient lightbulbs, save the world by eating less power. But aren't nearly as good at lighting as incandescent bulbs, contain
mercury, and flicker.
I still use them where I have conventional light fittings, because it saves me effort and probably some money.
Electric cars, ignoring the inconveniences of charging etc., I'd rather not have a massive bank of Li-Po batteries anywhere near me in a
crash.
Commercially produced biofuels, as good an idea as they are, they do have some links to causing food shortages/poverty.
Recycling, depends on the materials, I fear a good percentage is just stacked up in warehouses to create jobs.
I'm all for doing my part and saving the world, but I'm not getting bullied into doing needless stuff because of hype.
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Jasper
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| posted on 2/4/09 at 11:22 AM |
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Ok then, how about we all wait till it's absolutely proven and an undeniable fact .... oh yes, becasue if we do that it'll be too late and
we'll all be f*cked - I just hope plenty of the 'non-belivevers' are still left alive to suffer with everybody else..... though
nobody will be laughing that's for sure.
[Edited on 2/4/09 by Jasper]
If you're not living life on the edge you're taking up too much room.
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flak monkey
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| posted on 2/4/09 at 11:45 AM |
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I dont have a problem with burning less fossil fuels and cutting our CO2 emmissions in any way whatsoever. Infact I am all for it, at the end of the
day it means I keep more of my hard earned in my pocket.
Its the way that you are scared into doing it that gets me. Such a contentious issue as GW amonst the scientific community shouldnt YET be
regurgetated as fact IMO. Nearly every fortnight in my IMechE (IET) mag there is a story for and against, both balanced and the conclusion is
basically there is no consensus.
Personally I think that its being blown out of proportion to scare people into cutting CO2 rather than approaching it from a factual point of view.
Yes global temps are rising, but I bet a considerable amount of that is some natural fluctuation, some of it is man made, how much each has an impact
I dont honestly know (and nor do I think anyone else does).
What I struggle to understand is that the minute amount of CO2 which humans contribute to the overal global output, which is less than 0.05%
(including natural events and process) can affect global temps in anyway. Maybe this 0.05% extra is enough to tip the balance, but I dont think it
is.
When, and if, there is undeniable proof and universal consensus amonst the scientific community who really know what they are talking about then I am
more than happy to admit I was wrong. For now I will continue to do my bit where I feel it has the most impact on preserving our natural resources for
the future generations.
David
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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Jasper
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| posted on 2/4/09 at 12:06 PM |
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I can't disagree with any of that.
I can however, ask for proof that it's humans that have caused this. And I'm pretty sure that's not possible yet, unless of course
you cherry-pick studies that support your claims, and that's not science, that's politics.
Nobodys denying that change has happened before, but it the DEGREE of change that is completely unpresidented (except for massive disasters like super
volcano's and meteor strikes of course). Don't you think it would be rather a coincidence that the planet is going through a period of
temperature change so rapid it has never been seen before whilst humans have totally changed the face of the earth through industrialisation. Both of
which happening in tha last 100 years???
I'm sorry, but anybody who thinks the two things are unconnected are living in a dream world.
There are always theories for and against everything, that doesn't make it any less real. Their are ardent holocaust deniers out there and I
could publish a whole list of them on a monthly basis - doesn't mean the jury is still out though does it?
And I don't understand why you all think it's down to governmants wanting to scaremonger us for more taxes, it's surely something
they'd rather not have to deal with .... bit like George W. did for his 8 years in office .... nothing to do with the fact his family are into
oil in rather a big way.
If you're not living life on the edge you're taking up too much room.
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