daxtojeiro
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| posted on 29/10/10 at 12:23 PM | |
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quote:
Originally posted by beaver34
how much does a setup like this cost? is it worth all the hassle or are you better using a system like omex that has a great customer service and
backup
Hi,
to be honest I think MS has as good, if not better, backup than any other ECU out there. The problem is that MS can be made by anyone with a soldering
iron and then sold on ebay or where ever. Unless you actually buy from a recommended seller then you can buy something thats simply never going to
work.
People will always try to make money out of something, so they see an opportunity to solder some bits onto a board and pop it on EBay, make a bit of
cash. The poor guy who buys it, then finds out its been built by a 5year old, most of the solder joints are bad and its not configured to run the car
he has, or it doesn't have enough bits in it to work. This happens time and time again, and how ever much I try to tell people, there will
always be buyers who didnt know or who felt that they were doing the right thing, just like Richard.
The issues Richard had originally where from an ECU he was given, then he bought an ECU from the wrong guy. If he'd have bought from someone
off the recommended list in the first place (not having a go here), or indeed from someone who they were recommended then we wouldn't be talking
about it as it would have been all running now. Search the internet for your supplier and see what people are saying about them on forums, thats the
best option in my opinion.
Cost for an MS1 EDIS ECU is £295, an MS2 is £345 they both including a loom, manual, software, comms leads, etc, so they are much cheaper than other
aftermarket ECUs and not exactly expensive for something thats built and ready to go with a warantee.
Richard, how much the MTech one just cost you? Last time I looked at their prices I was shocked!
Phil
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beaver34
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| posted on 29/10/10 at 12:56 PM | |
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why are they not used as widley as the other brands and setups?
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clairetoo
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| posted on 29/10/10 at 03:19 PM | |
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quote:
Originally posted by beaver34
why are they not used as widley as the other brands and setups?
Largly because of the reputation threads like this , and venders like Mtech , give to a perfectly good product .
If you want a plug'n'play setup that you can pay some one to map for you , and have no real interest in how it all works - megasquirt is
not for you .
But - if , like me you want to know how things work and want the satisfaction of doing as much as possible yourself , as well as having no money  ,
then megasquirt is a great product - more versatile and user-configurable than ECU's costing 10 time's the price , and with a huge
following 
Mine has had one minor fault in three years of use (a poorly soldered jumper wire , but then it was originally built by Mtech )
Its cuz I is blond , innit
Claire xx
Will weld for food......
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beaver34
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| posted on 29/10/10 at 04:24 PM | |
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quote:
Originally posted by clairetoo
quote:
Originally posted by beaver34
why are they not used as widley as the other brands and setups?
Largly because of the reputation threads like this , and venders like Mtech , give to a perfectly good product .
If you want a plug'n'play setup that you can pay some one to map for you , and have no real interest in how it all works - megasquirt is
not for you .
But - if , like me you want to know how things work and want the satisfaction of doing as much as possible yourself , as well as having no money ,
then megasquirt is a great product - more versatile and user-configurable than ECU's costing 10 time's the price , and with a huge
following
Mine has had one minor fault in three years of use (a poorly soldered jumper wire , but then it was originally built by Mtech )
fair enough, i all had the down for being tagged with being crap and know one wanting to map them from what you here on the internet, i run omex and
have for the last 2 cars been perfect and backup from the guys is great which is half the battle and the place i use to map my cars are happy to use
that
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daxtojeiro
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| posted on 29/10/10 at 04:41 PM | |
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quote:
Originally posted by beaver34
why are they not used as widley as the other brands and setups?
I have no idea how widley other ECUs are used, but since James and I started writting the MS-Extra code a few years ago, several thousand MS ECUs have
been sold, so they arent what Id call unpopular 
Theres no big difference between most of the after market ECUs as far as wiring them up. We do PnP ECUs which are easy to install, wired ECUs, etc,
etc. You dont need to know whats going on inside, just like you dont need to know inside an Omex, or what have you, but if you want to know, then we
supply all the info you could ever want to read.
The issue for MS is that anyone can build one if they want to, so theres no quality standard or build standard amoungst those people. You can only
really rely on a few people to sell you what you want and something thats going to work. With other ECUs, if you buy it from any store/outlet then it
will be the same as one from another store/outlet.
This is why I wrote the MS manuals, to try to get some common ground amoungst builders, but theres only so much I can do for them. Personally I always
recommend buying them built from a recommended outlet that way you can be assured that you will get help and backup as well as an ECU that
works.
Even tuners are now happy to set them up, I have several customers who run rolling roads as well as companies like V8Developments, who use my MSs all
the while now. The latest tuning software is utterly superb, with auto tuning functions, etc.
Anyhow, lets hope Richard gets running soon,
cheers
Phil
[Edited on 29/10/10 by daxtojeiro]
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MakeEverything
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| posted on 29/10/10 at 06:07 PM | |
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OK, i just need to clarify some things here;
I love the prospect of having an ECU that is all open protocol, and fully adaptable to my requirements.
Megasquirt is Massively diverse, and "the opportunities are endless".
The donwside of it is as Phil says, there are lots out there being thrown together, and even the used items have been build to suit their original
installation, not necessarily the 2nd installation.
I am very interested in how every aspect of my car works, including the ECU however, because of its diversity and the num ber of different
combinations of software / hardware, the instructions are very confusing and somewhat overwhelming.
The MTech unit cost me £300 PLUS VAT, and the MS1 was £100 but with an additional £80 for the daughter board.
All in all, i could have put my £500 towards a factory unit, but then im not telepathic. We all make mistakes during our build, it just so happens
that mine means that i wont meet my project timeline.
In fairness to MTECH, they are working to resolve the issues i have under warranty, and have assured me that my wiring and their instructions are
correct. When the ECU goes away, i'll be rewiring the car again just to be sure. The ECU was sold with a lifetime warranty, fortunately.
All in all, i should summarise my points;
Megasquirt is great, as long as it is built to meet your application requirements
Always use a reputable dealer, and buy with a warranty.
Dont rely on the efficiencies of suppliers to meet your deadlines!
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
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MakeEverything
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| posted on 29/10/10 at 08:00 PM | |
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I have just had a chat with someone tonight about this thread and my experiences, and have deleted some of my previous comments which may not have
been entirely fair, particularly the emotional ones.
Although some of my initial disappointments still occurred, i should add that my problems are being dealt with and i have had constant support
throughout the day today, by phone.
My ECU is going on a holiday to be repaired (Coil Driver got very hot) under its lifetime warranty, and on a fast track service.
So in the cold light of day, i surmise that MTECH have really done what they can for me over the last 2 days, given the circumstances, and as said
will retract some of my previous posts.
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
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mtechmatt
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| posted on 31/10/10 at 05:06 PM | |
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Hi everyone, Im Matt from M-Tech..
Firstly, as discussed with Richard, the unit was not to be brand new as we do not sell the older V3 system anymore..
The coil driver went pop, as Richard loaded his EDIS based map into it...
We rushed around and dug him out a unit so he could get his car up and running, and as he will recall I offered him mapping for free once he gets it
going on account as its for a charitable cause.
The notes I gave him were that coil A is on Pin 36 and Coil B is on pin 4, with all other pins being the same as the V2, hence why written on the
invoice rather than typeed up and laminated.
Phil Ringwood likes to jump in and bla bla all about this and that instead of infact trying to help SOLVE the issue.
Phil, do you your customer blow coil drivers too?
As soon as Richard called me in working hours the next day, yes thats right chaps, we close at 5... I was on the case, and we went through some steps
to check things over.
btw phil, his crank sensor was fine as he is now getting a stable RPM reading, though he did try and tell you this I believe?
Anyway, I have said get the ECU off to our engineer who builds and tests them, who is doing us a favour and digging out his old kit to sort this V3
out.
Richard has done so, and once the ECU is back in his hands, hopefully by mid this week, his car will be running, then brought to us to tune it for
him.
I'm not entirely sure what richard means by "Customer Cars" in speech marks, we are a very busy company, we often have 15-20
projects on the go at anyone time, and the MEV outside is my own car, which with the amount of work we have on has been unable to be touched for over
a year!
Hope that helps, my aims are to get Richards car up and running.... 'fake' V3 or not... anyone heard of IBM? Maybe something being IBM
compatible? Our V3 board is Megasquirt V3 compatible...
Bored of you Phil, very bored!
Richardm, give us a call when you get the ECU back and we'll get it running 
Cheers guys, sorry for the rant but it seems alot can be said without much proof of anything. I lvoe how Phil gets 2 emails a week about our V3s, A)
we havent sold any for over a year and B) Lifetime warranty? Why havent they called the supplier??? Laughable!
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mtechmatt
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| posted on 31/10/10 at 05:13 PM | |
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quote:
Originally posted by clairetoo
quote:
Originally posted by beaver34
why are they not used as widley as the other brands and setups?
Largly because of the reputation threads like this , and venders like Mtech , give to a perfectly good product .
If you want a plug'n'play setup that you can pay some one to map for you , and have no real interest in how it all works - megasquirt is
not for you .
But - if , like me you want to know how things work and want the satisfaction of doing as much as possible yourself , as well as having no money ,
then megasquirt is a great product - more versatile and user-configurable than ECU's costing 10 time's the price , and with a huge
following
Mine has had one minor fault in three years of use (a poorly soldered jumper wire , but then it was originally built by Mtech )
Interesting, so your badly built M-Tech unit has worked fine for 3 years, accept for a jumper wire? It was covered under warranty, but I think 3 years
for a throughhole mounted system is pretty good going!
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martyn_16v
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| posted on 31/10/10 at 07:21 PM | |
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quote:
Originally posted by mtechmatt
anyone heard of IBM? Maybe something being IBM compatible? Our V3 board is Megasquirt V3 compatible...
All IBM compatibles were reverse engineered from a clean slate to replicate the functionality, because just ripping off IBM's intellectual
property (the BIOS, specifically in that case) without consent would be illegal.
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clairetoo
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| posted on 31/10/10 at 08:01 PM | |
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quote:
Originally posted by mtechmatt
Interesting, so your badly built M-Tech unit has worked fine for 3 years, accept for a jumper wire? It was covered under warranty, but I think 3 years
for a throughhole mounted system is pretty good going!
It was a badly built M-tech unit that had been comprehensively re-worked by some one else after the original customer of yours had given up trying to
get you to sort it out .
You have to understand that after my `experience' of dealing with you , I wouldnt wish that on my worst enemy 
If you do indeed follow up on your promise and sort out Richards ECU , I for one will be amazed 
Its cuz I is blond , innit
Claire xx
Will weld for food......
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daxtojeiro
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| posted on 31/10/10 at 08:31 PM | |
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Hi all,
simply do a search in Google for MTech and find out the truth for yourselves. I'm not going to turn this into a fight of words Im afraid, the
truth is all out there.
I guess what you have to ask yourself is, if someone is willing to rip off someone elses design, software and firmware, are they a credable, worthy
person to do business with??
Ohh, Matt, real MS ECUs use the Bosch spark drivers, these don't blow up (3 years without a single failure!)
The old spark drivers only burnt out when there were other issues, e.g. the crank signal, not due to the spark driver, but then your the expert
If people read this thread then they will soon see the approach you have is the opposite to mine:
Customer had no spark from EDIS module and no signal to the MS ECU from the EDIS module. (The EDIS will spark even if the ECU isn't in the car,
so its not going to be the ECU)
My diagnosis was the EDIS module or the signal to the module (crank sensor), 9 times out of 10 its a miss aligned sensor, possibly the coil pack or a
wiring fault. I got the customer to trigger the MS ECU externally and it fired into life, so it looks like the ECU was fine. Advise was fix the EDIS
issues first. Cost for my diagnosis £0 (Im not going to rip the guy off and try to sell him something as the issue wasnt likely to be the ECU)
Your diagnosis was replace the ECU and dump the EDIS module. Cost for your diagnosis £351, and the customer still isn't up and running due to a
smoking fake ECU
Sort of says it all doesn't it
Phil
[Edited on 1/11/10 by daxtojeiro]
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mtechmatt
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| posted on 1/11/10 at 08:49 AM | |
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Phil,
I didn't carry out a diagnosis, the customer called asking if we could supply a V3 unit which I did.
And yes, we use the BIP drivers too, but we find incorrect wiring/bad tuen setup etc can still damage them. Hence why on the V4 we added protection
external to the driver so you can run a car battery directly accross them and they still wont fail.
Indeed if you look around the web you may find a few bad experiences, you also find me jumping in offering to help and rectify. If you also look
around you will see countless happy customers!
Did you watch MotorsTV the other night? You may of seen this car finish 2nd in the Brittish Rallyx champs...
http://www.mtechautomotive.co.uk/guides/index.php/Alan%27s_S2000_powered_RWD_RallyX_Corsa
Or pehaps just have a look on these locost forums for 'M-Tech Automotive' there is another post with people saying how they have had no
issues, along with many other sites as well.
You just seem to keep going over old ground. Next time a customer emails you, say 'Contact M-Tech, you have a waranty, don't ya
know?", that is of course if you get as many emails as you say.
The ECUs we have from other suppliers that we fix, and then map for people doesent make us jump on everytime we see their names on a forum, we just
want the customer driving down the road with a big grin, and that is exactly what we aim for everytime!
Heres an MEV customer of our, in hbis own words:
http://www.mtechautomotive.co.uk/guides/index.php/Tim%27s_MEV_Rocket
Try and find a recent bad thread, rather than things back from 2006 when we were assembling the ECUs, much like yourself, at home. The V3 was then
assembled by a factory in Notts, and the V4 is now robotically asembled (as its SMD) down in Southants. The ECus only ever cause issues when
insutrctions are not followed and first time attempts show up problems.
Like you Phil, I have yet to blow up a V3 myself when fitting and mapping, regardless of who built it!
Also, forgot to mention, the V3 supplied to Richard was removed from a RUNNING VEHICLE! The customer wanted to upgrade to our V4 system, hence its
removal!
Matt
[Edited on 1/11/10 by mtechmatt]
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interestedparty
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| posted on 1/11/10 at 08:56 AM | |
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This thread is a great example of why name/shame threads are a BAD thing.
If the person or firm being got at in the thread isn’t there to defend himself then its bloody unfair. If he is there to defend himself then people
reading it don’t know who is telling the truth (probably both of them, each giving their own experiences) and who is not telling the truth. Or it
could even be that the truth is somewhere in between or not there at all.
Personally I think forums are better off without name/shame threads.
As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,
I've got a little list-- I've got a little list
Of society offenders who might well be underground,
And who never would be missed-- who never would be missed!
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mtechmatt
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| posted on 1/11/10 at 09:27 AM | |
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I to some part agree, however with the bad comes the good, and people like to post their experiences, both good and bad.
The problem here is we are talking THEIR experiences, not a third persons.
Also, people rarely pass on good results, just bad ones!
The outside fact is this. If as a company we were 'so bad' as it were, why would I be on here defending myself? Why would I of even
bothered to help richard with a V3 in the first place? How comes we are featured in so many magazines, and build championship winning cars?
We have a 4000sq foot premises packed with work, and an MOT bay doing 8 tests a day as well, a dyno that does on average £300/day in tuning, so why
play for the small profit in a retired V3 unit, bringing with it the support requirements and so on?
The reason is becuase I actually enjoy helping people, and I like I said as any tuning company would agree, the grin on the customers face when they
pull back in after the road test (or the funny noises they make on the road test and almost little boy excitment thereafter!) makes it all worth
while.
We simply wouldn't be a succesful company if we had not good results, certianly not after 6 years now, with ever growing expansion and
development.
As someone above put how threads like these stop people wanting to deal with companies 'like us', I agree, it makes me want to stop
dealing with customers who dont appreciate the cost of motorsport, those who dont appreciate mistakes can indeed be on their part, and those who dont
appreciate the efforts we go through to help.
We always go over and above the call of duty for customer satisfaction, and like other tuners are at the end of the phone to answer technical
queries.. even out of hours when warranted!
This is in by no way a dig at Richard, in fact after speaking to him he said how he didnt mean it to dig so bad at us, just expressing frustration,
which I can appreciate.
Time pressure gets to all of us!
Matt
[Edited on 1/11/10 by mtechmatt]
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MakeEverything
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| posted on 1/11/10 at 07:53 PM | |
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OK, i need to chip in here.
My initial disappointments are because my expectations from companies (Including my own) which provide a service are very high. Subsequently, this
means that i am often constantly looking at areas for improvement and development.
Presently, i am working as a transition consultant on a CHP (Combined Heating & Power) scheme, whereby my standards are the difference between
having no tools, materials and no maintenance carried out for 8 years, to having a full set of clean tools, correct work areas, painted floors and up
to date maintenance. I strongly believe that your work space often reflects your standard of work - "Face Value" which i refer to
below.
I have been wanting to upgrade from my old V2.2 for some time, and the problems i had with the suspected EDIS (Even after phils help identifying the
ECU as fine) and not being able to get hold of one last week, really just expedited my decision to go for a newer ECU.
At the time, i think there may have been a communication problem which lead me to believe that the ECU was new - Matt, im almost certain that Tim said
you had a "New one Stashed away", but im not worried about this.
As already said, i did make some unfair comments with which, my urgency added more emotion than i should have allowed leading the their subsequent
removal. I apologise if this offended in any way.
I should also add, that Matt is correct in saying that he has offered everything he can (Short of coming over to fit it himself!!  ) to help me out,
and am confident that somehow i will have the car running on the V3 ECU.
In Phils's defence as well, he did try to offer as much help as possible, with an ECU that he didnt even sell me.
The V3 Coil Driver problem is still a bit of a mystery to me as i didnt have any map loaded in, only the settings from the MS1 however, the dwell
settings may have been the cause, after some searching around.
This thread was not a Name and Shame thread at all, it was merely an expression of my experiences and an open forum discussion. Similarly, if either
had excelled in any way i would have said so.
In short;
I approached M-Tech for a V3 in a bid to upgrade and remove EDIS.
M-Tech have produced one and offered the repair FOC under the lifetime warranty.
Phil did help me to diagnose the MS1 as serviceable, and potential EDIS issues.
I will also add, that im not going to be in the middle of Matt and Phil's pissing contest, and will take either party on face value (Good or
bad) rather than historical (2006 was mentioned?) problems. Feedback as a regular contributor to this forum is a consequence of a good or a bad
service, indifferently. That is what makes this forum so useful to all members.
Matt, The quote "Customers Cars" was the phrase you used to describe them. Dont read anything into that, it is quite literally, a quote.
No ill intention there.
So there we have it. Ive said my peace, and have nothing more to say on my previous posting errors, or this situation at this stage, though my build
blog and "Update" thread will be kept updated.
All i can say is what i see, know, think and experience. This is after all, a discussion forum for like minded people.
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
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interestedparty
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| posted on 1/11/10 at 08:33 PM | |
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The thing with name and shame threads is that in every case, I should think, the person starting it is just setting out their own experiences.
That's all well and good, but one person's experience isn't necessarily the actual truth of a situation. To take an extreme example-
suppose someone was to go to a film and say they absolutely hated it. Maybe they did, and they would be speaking the truth, but it would be a truth
from their own point of view. It could be that everybody else in the cinema loved it. But if other people only read that one point of view,
they might not go and see the film for themselves.
And that's the problem, it's only one person's point of view. They are absolutely entitled to it, but I'm not sure if they
ought to be allowed to tell goodness knows how many other people about it through a well-used forum like this.
I don't want to cause offence to Richard, especially as there have been plenty of other threads like this in the past, but I would like others
to say what they think about this type of thread, and whether such threads are fair or not.
As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,
I've got a little list-- I've got a little list
Of society offenders who might well be underground,
And who never would be missed-- who never would be missed!
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mtechmatt
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| posted on 1/11/10 at 08:35 PM | |
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Richard,
I have some good news to add. After speaking to Notts, the ECu will be with you wednesday
Call me once you have it there and we will do some prechecks before we fire her up
Cheers,
Matt
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mtechmatt
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| posted on 1/11/10 at 08:42 PM | |
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quote:
Originally posted by interestedparty
I don't want to cause offence to Richard, especially as there have been plenty of other threads like this in the past, but I would like others
to say what they think about this type of thread, and whether such threads are fair or not.
I think they are worth it as a post, if the parties involved can be informed of it.
It is very frustrating how a problem can be spoken alowed whilst at the same time being solved. Between the solution and the problem arising,
'competition' can make their mark and so on. I think the end result is what counts.
Posts of this nature should read:
I had an issue.
I made them/the person aware.
Then Either:
They sorted things to my satisfiaction
Or:
They did not, avoid like the plague.
As it currently stands they tend to read:
I have a problem, Im panicing, anyone else with a problem with such and such... whos going to appear, those whom have had a problem.
Yes, I have a few unhappy customers out there in the past, I have done all I can to help them out, can;t do anymore than that, but these customers
come to light...
Claire, I remember you disticntly. You ordered the ECU, then cancelled, then reordered. I only remember you as you are 1 of probably 5 (in maybe
almost a thousand happy customers by now) people whom have not been entirely pleased with our service. I also had a chap working for at the time by
the Name of Chuzzy, whom was not help at all when dealing with customers (I was back at uni at this point and so could not dedicate my full attention
to M-Tech, though as you said this is over 3 years ago now.
As a gesture of good will (I'm not sure how far along your project is in terms of mapping etc) I am more than happy for you to pop down here for
a free check/tune on the rollers, or indeed just a power run to see how everything is performing.
Regards,
Matt
[Edited on 1/11/10 by mtechmatt]
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l0rd
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| posted on 1/11/10 at 08:59 PM | |
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I am going to hide in a corner and put loads of layers of foam and bubble wrap around me.
Richard, did all these happen because i pushed you to the garage for some progress the night that the first ECU was damaged?
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MakeEverything
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| posted on 1/11/10 at 09:16 PM | |
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quote:
Originally posted by interestedparty
The thing with name and shame threads is that in every case, I should think, the person starting it is just setting out their own experiences.
That's all well and good, but one person's experience isn't necessarily the actual truth of a situation. To take an extreme example-
suppose someone was to go to a film and say they absolutely hated it. Maybe they did, and they would be speaking the truth, but it would be a truth
from their own point of view. It could be that everybody else in the cinema loved it. But if other people only read that one point of view,
they might not go and see the film for themselves.
And that's the problem, it's only one person's point of view. They are absolutely entitled to it, but I'm not sure if they
ought to be allowed to tell goodness knows how many other people about it through a well-used forum like this.
I don't want to cause offence to Richard, especially as there have been plenty of other threads like this in the past, but I would like others
to say what they think about this type of thread, and whether such threads are fair or not.
I dont want to cause offence by calling you a hypocrite, but i draw your attention to your post
here
Now youre confusing me.....
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
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MakeEverything
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| posted on 1/11/10 at 09:17 PM | |
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quote:
Originally posted by l0rd
I am going to hide in a corner and put loads of layers of foam and bubble wrap around me.
Richard, did all these happen because i pushed you to the garage for some progress the night that the first ECU was damaged?
yes!!
....maybe......
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
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MakeEverything
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| posted on 1/11/10 at 09:19 PM | |
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quote:
Originally posted by mtechmatt
Richard,
I have some good news to add. After speaking to Notts, the ECu will be with you wednesday
Call me once you have it there and we will do some prechecks before we fire her up
Cheers,
Matt
Will Do, Thanks Matt thats great. Im working this week though, so might not be until the evening (After 5 though ) or weekend?
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
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scootz
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| posted on 1/11/10 at 09:49 PM | |
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quote:
Originally posted by interestedparty
The thing with name and shame threads is that in every case, I should think, the person starting it is just setting out their own
experiences.
... and that's all we can do!
As far as I'm concerned it's up to the individual to satisfy themselves as to whether or not a reputation is deserved and anyone who
considers every opinion to be fact is either extremely naive or extremely foolish.
It's Evolution Baby!
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interestedparty
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| posted on 1/11/10 at 10:11 PM | |
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quote:
Originally posted by MakeEverything
I dont want to cause offence by calling you a hypocrite, but i draw your attention to your post
here
Now youre confusing me.....
Well you are confusing me too, I don't quite see how an argument between 2 people posting on a thread is the same as a name and shame thread.
It's not like it's going to affect either of ours businesses as we dont have any AFAIK.
A few years ago I did have a business, and I fell out with a customer who, if there had been internet forums at the time, I reckon could have done me
a great deal of damage, and he was totally convinced he was right, regardless of my having several witnesses who would have testified against him if
he could have got it into a court.
That's what I am saying, it's all very well for a person to say 'it's my opinon and I'm entitled to tell people'
but some people work on the 'where there's smoke there's fire' principle even though they ought to be more sensible.
As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,
I've got a little list-- I've got a little list
Of society offenders who might well be underground,
And who never would be missed-- who never would be missed!
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