twinturbo
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| posted on 9/12/09 at 03:37 PM |
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ABS - Roadster
I know a lot of peeps don't like ABS. but I intend to use the car I build every day rain or shine and you can't trust half the muppits
round here not to do something stupid.
So
Anyone fitted ABS using the sierra system?
TT
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jabbahutt
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| posted on 9/12/09 at 03:40 PM |
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correct me if I'm wrong but I thought you couldn't have ABS on a amateur built car, the same with air bags.
I could well be wrong, it won't be the first time
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turbodisplay
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| posted on 9/12/09 at 03:47 PM |
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Ray has a sierra abs system in his car, I asked him about it and he says it works ok.
I personally would go for a complete system like the newer bosch and kesley hayes system form the vauxhall vectra (sub 2l) version. The modulator and
ecu are one unit, so less wires are required.
The main fear is going into ice mode when wet, due to the low mass the abs comes to the conclusion you are on ice. It then brakes poorly as a
result.
The vx220 suffers from this due to using the system (from a heavier car) with no software change.
You need a system that detects incorrect speed (eg tyre deflated), ie a fairly modern system.
The vauxhall vectra system is excellent, i have wired one into mine, didn`t require too much effort to fit.
Also look for the bosch version from something sporty like a porsche or mazda rx8. The software is optimised for sportiness.
Darren
[Edited on 9/12/09 by turbodisplay]
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tegwin
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| posted on 9/12/09 at 03:52 PM |
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I dont understand your agument for wanting ABS...
I can stop my tintop quicker with the ABS fuse removed, than I can with the system working properly.
You just need to be awake enough to detect any slippage and lift off the brakes a bit.
The cost and complexity of ABS on such a lightweight car seem to outweigh the benefits to me.
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Would the last person who leaves the country please switch off the lights and close the door!
www.verticalhorizonsmedia.tv
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mr henderson
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| posted on 9/12/09 at 04:05 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by tegwin
You just need to be awake enough to detect any slippage and lift off the brakes a bit.
Especially if you are going to check all four wheels 50 times a second, like what abs systems do!
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smart51
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| posted on 9/12/09 at 04:07 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by tegwin
I dont understand your agument for wanting ABS...
I can stop my tintop quicker with the ABS fuse removed, than I can with the system working properly.
You just need to be awake enough to detect any slippage and lift off the brakes a bit.
In all weather conditions? And road conditions? Are you sure? You must be a super hero driver then. Especially if you can cadence brake each wheel
individually. If ABS were so poor, I'd be out of a job by now
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 9/12/09 at 04:10 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by smart51
In all weather conditions? And road conditions? Are you sure? You must be a super hero driver then. Especially if you can cadence brake each wheel
individually. If ABS were so poor, I'd be out of a job by now
I agree as long as we are talking about a good modern system, some of the early ones were really quite poor.
The IVA test is likely to be a problem with an ABS system fitted; ISTR you have to provide certification from the manufacturer of the system as to
it's suitability for the application.
[Edited on 9/12/09 by MikeRJ]
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turbodisplay
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| posted on 9/12/09 at 04:10 PM |
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Me also, my astra van abs became so leathal, so a wheel sensor mysteriously disconnected (taking the fuse out resulting in no ebd, with the rears
locking too soon).
My astra doesn`t have abs, and i`m fine with it.
However on the track is is so good, you brake very very late, turn in still on the brakes,the abs keeps control, far better than any driver (each
individual wheel is controlled, rather having to lift off all 4 wheels).
There is also an argument when you are not 100% alert (ie tired) or very wet it is useful.
Darren
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jabbahutt
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| posted on 9/12/09 at 04:10 PM |
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Well you live and learn. As predicted I was wrong, maybe I should take it up as a hobby I'd be great at it 
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turbodisplay
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| posted on 9/12/09 at 04:20 PM |
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Not according to the manual:
21.
If the vehicle is fitted with an anti-lock braking system, all components must be present, undamaged, secure, connected and operational so that the
system is likely to function as intended. See note 4
22.
If the vehicle is fitted with an anti-lock braking system an operational warning lamp must be fitted to monitor the system, visible from the driving
position, which operates when the anti-lock is energised, and extinguishes at the latest when the vehicle speed reaches 10km/h
Note 4: The vehicle must be driven and the operation (modulation) of the ABS system assessed under braking to indicate satisfactory operation of the
system. NB This check is not necessary if the ABS warning lamp illuminates during a speedometer check indicating that the sensors are detecting
unusual wheel speeds/operation
Darren
[Edited on 9/12/09 by turbodisplay]
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twinturbo
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| posted on 9/12/09 at 04:20 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by smart51
quote:
Originally posted by tegwin
I dont understand your agument for wanting ABS...
I can stop my tintop quicker with the ABS fuse removed, than I can with the system working properly.
You just need to be awake enough to detect any slippage and lift off the brakes a bit.
In all weather conditions? And road conditions? Are you sure? You must be a super hero driver then. Especially if you can cadence brake each wheel
individually. If ABS were so poor, I'd be out of a job by now
Exactly, ok the sierra system is on 25 times a second from memory and only controls 2 front and 1 rear line individualy.
I am awake, but all it takes is for a kid to fall of the pavement and swerving and braking at the same time is much safer if something else is taking
care of the braking effort whilst the driver looks after where the car is going and trying to avoid all the other obstacles.
And they don't weigh that much more.
The Vauxhall system sounds interesting, does it require special hubs? something?
TT
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turbodisplay
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| posted on 9/12/09 at 04:32 PM |
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29 pulses per rev. I used vectra hubs in mine as I have 4wd, the hubs are quite easy to fit, rather than the sierra requiring a ball joint adapter.
The diagnostics, by using op com (from ebay) tells you wheel speeds, if the stop switch works, fault codes etc.
the speed is output via the red/blue wire to a dash.
It also has a G sensor built in so orientaion is very important.
Split is horizontal so no bias possible (it is done inside the unit anyway).
Darren
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turbodisplay
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| posted on 9/12/09 at 04:34 PM |
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Also there are 2 or 3 software revisions, i think the 139xxx revision is the crap one.
My parents vectra has the good (later) revision, i can personally testify to how good it is in the wet!.
Darren
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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coozer
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| posted on 9/12/09 at 04:39 PM |
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I pulled the fuse on my Rover 45 after having to steer round a car at a junction.. no matter how hard I pressed it just wouldn't stop.
Car now stops better and I feel safer
1972 V8 Jago
1980 Z750
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turbodisplay
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| posted on 9/12/09 at 04:42 PM |
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Possibly due to it being the type that does not sense a wheel speed fault.
That is why it is specified for IVA, due to the danger of the brakes being so poor when a fault occurs.
Darren
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boggle
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| posted on 9/12/09 at 04:51 PM |
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i had a subaru impreza type r, which was the 2door homolgation vehicle for rallying, i also had a type ra, again built with rallying in
mind.....neither had abs fitted, yet my jdm wrx did.....
i found without much better, but i like a raw driving experience...
imho alot of people rely too much on modern safety aids and feel indestructable in their cars....but thats just my opinion.
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Danozeman
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| posted on 9/12/09 at 05:23 PM |
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I hate abs. My zetec-s fiesta i had the abs nearly made me crash on a few occasions mainly on ice. I pulled the fuse and it braked so much better.
My bmw is the same right pain in the arse.
Dan
Built the purple peril!! Let the modifications begin!!
http://www.eastangliankitcars.co.uk
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speedyxjs
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| posted on 9/12/09 at 07:40 PM |
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I also hate ABS. My astra doesnt have ABS and i have only had one scary moment when the wheels locked on a big sheet of ice at a blind junction but
even then i managed to stop the car before i slid into the road.
If however, you have no experience of controling an uncontrolable car, i would say to fit the ABS and also some for of traction control, especially if
you are going to use it everyday.
How long can i resist the temptation to drop a V8 in?
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snapper
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| posted on 9/12/09 at 07:41 PM |
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I have discussed this with a high up tecky guy from Fords, he goes to test Traction controls and ABS systems on the ice lakes in sweden and writes the
anti logs etc, so knows his stuff.
When i mentioned using an ABS system from a donor he started talking about the original mass of the donor and how the abs ecu interprets the signals
from the wheel sensors, the upshot was that unless the abs ecu is programmed for a 7 size and weight car and understands the chassis dynamics or at
least has data to work from, your abs system from the donor will only give marginal performance at best.
Dangerous IMHO.
I eat to survive
I drink to forget
I breath to pi55 my ex wife off (and now my ex partner)
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skodaman
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| posted on 10/12/09 at 02:54 AM |
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One of the main reasons I'm building a locost is to have something different to the modern tintop, ie. none of the following,
ABS
Power steering
Airbags
Fuel injection
Hydraulic clutch
Brake servo
Catatalytic converter
Not so sure about no roof or windscreen or heater though.
Of course I reserve the right to fit them later if deemed necessary from a performance point of view. I think there is a strong case for banning
power steering cos if your engine cuts out it's nearly impossibly to steer. I nearly hit a tranny van once cos of this. It give's no
feedback through the wheel of the road surface either.
Skodaman
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britishtrident
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| posted on 10/12/09 at 10:18 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by coozer
I pulled the fuse on my Rover 45 after having to steer round a car at a junction.. no matter how hard I pressed it just wouldn't stop.
Car now stops better and I feel safer
Symptom of a cracked reluctor ring - easy fix you really want to fix it and get the abs working.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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twinturbo
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| posted on 10/12/09 at 10:28 PM |
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quote:
imho alot of people rely too much on modern safety aids and feel indestructable in their cars....but thats just my opinion.
It's a safety aid. for the moments when things go wrong. If you can predict every thing that every body else ( drivers, cyclist, pedestrians,
dogs, falling loads, etc ) is going to do then sure your going to have a good chance of controling the car. But there is not enough space on the roads
for us to make a safe space for all the variables.
If your relying on ABS day to day then you need to go back to the driving instructor.
TT
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britishtrident
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| posted on 10/12/09 at 10:28 PM |
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On a lot of different models anything from Audi to Vauxhall cracked ABS reluctor rings are becoming increasingly common.
The problem arises because the rectuctor ring and the CV have no paint or corrosion protection, water gets in between the ABS ring and the cv joint
and as a rust layer forms forces an expansion of the ring until it breaks.
Usually you don't get any warning light just the ABS cuts in prematurely.
The problem seems much more common on post 1999 models probably because of a change in manufacturing methods,
The fix usually takes about 25 minutes per side ---, undo the bottom ball joint, pop the cv joint out from the strut, clean up cv joint, heat shrink
ABS ring on and put it back together.
If you have ABS and disconnect it you could well find your insurance company won't pay out if anything happens.
[Edited on 10/12/09 by britishtrident]
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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twinturbo
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| posted on 10/12/09 at 10:30 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Danozeman
I hate abs. My zetec-s fiesta i had the abs nearly made me crash on a few occasions mainly on ice. I pulled the fuse and it braked so much better.
My bmw is the same right pain in the arse.
You want to be careful if you end up as part of an incident.
The Traffic investigators can tell if the ABS was operational or not. and if yours is intentionaly disabled without the insurance knowing then your
going to be hunting arround for something to get your boat back down dihorea creek.
TT
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twinturbo
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| posted on 10/12/09 at 10:33 PM |
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On of the pickup rings failed on our V6 Mondeo. That posted a fault But the Teves MK2 systems usualy do.
TT
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