Alfa145
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| posted on 27/7/11 at 11:55 AM |
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Do I upgrade my M16s?
Got M16 calipers on my car. Before I look at upgrading the engine power I thought I best look at the stopping power.
Are M16s good enough to stop most things or should I be looking for some Wilwoods or similar?
What Wilwoods are a direct replacement for the M16s? Also what pads would be best for fast road and track use?
Cheers.
[Edited on 27/7/11 by Alfa145]
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JAG
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| posted on 27/7/11 at 12:14 PM |
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M16's are more than adequate for any car that weighs less than 750kg and is slower than 150mph.
They will last longer and require much less maintenance than Willwoods or any other similar caliper.
There are lot's of aftermarket pads available and you can play until you find one you like.
The only downside is the weight and maybe the aesthetics - your call 
[Edited on 27/7/11 by JAG]
Justin
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Rosemary, the telephone operator? ...No.
Penry, the mild-mannered janitor? ...Could be!
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SausageArm
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| posted on 27/7/11 at 12:36 PM |
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Even if the braking performance is not improved it's a good way of reducing unsprung weight.
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thefreak
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| posted on 27/7/11 at 01:27 PM |
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The Wilwood calipers dont require any more maintenance than any other caliper, other than a quick scrub when you change the pads. maybe 15 minutes a
side. but if you're changing the pads you usually give them a quick clean anyway dont you?
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hughpinder
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| posted on 27/7/11 at 02:22 PM |
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M16 calipers have 54mm diameter piston, hence if you replace them with four pot calipers with 1.5 inch dia pistons, the braking force will be about
1%less than the M16's, e.g 1% more force needed on the pedal for hte same effect. If you use four pot 1.75" pistons, then the piston area,
and hence braking force for a given pedal pressure will be quite a bit more (bigger piston area), but you will get proportionally more pedal
travel.
See
http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/pdf/designing_4_pot_brakes.pdf
For all you need to know
Regards
Hugh
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Alfa145
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| posted on 27/7/11 at 03:01 PM |
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Cheers for that.
I'm looking to get a slightly longer pedal anyway as its very firm and short at the moment and I prefer a slightly longer and softer one.
Perhaps changing the front master cylinder might help but that means sorting out the brake balance and I've no idea where to start on that.
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pewe
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| posted on 27/7/11 at 03:55 PM |
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My M16's with Green Stuff pads seem to be up to the job for track-days, Autosolos etc.
HTH.
Cheers, Pewe 
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thefreak
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| posted on 27/7/11 at 03:59 PM |
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Are people still buying Greenstuffs?! I destroyed a set in 3 laps of Elvington. They're worse than trying to use toffee to brake with
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britishtrident
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| posted on 27/7/11 at 04:10 PM |
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Changing one normal tandem master cylinder should have no effect on brake balance brake.
Willwood calipers don't have external dust/moisture seals, given that alloy calipers are more prone to seizing anyway this can cause problems..
Willwood calipers tend to give spongey brakes for three reasons that are nothing to do with the piston areas.
(1) The longer thinner alluminium alloy caliper flexes a lot more than a fat short single/two pot caliper ---- think of a each half of the
caliper as a bridge, if cross the imaginary bridges which bridge will sag more ? A short fat steel one or a long thin light alloy bridge.
Flexing translates as pedal travel.
(2) The aligment of the brakets used to mount some types of ally caliper to disc is sometimes less than perfect.
(3) 100% perfect bleeding of Willwoods can be tricky
Points (2) and (3) can be worked round but point (1) is a fact of engineering life.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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thefreak
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| posted on 27/7/11 at 04:17 PM |
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I've sold a lot of Wilwood calipers for various cars over the past 5 years and the customers haven't had any problems withe the calipers
flexing. Maybe back in the early days they did, but not with the more recent forged calipers.
Also, the calipers are aluminium, but the pistons are stainless steel, so dont have a problem with corroding, and as such dont need dust seals/boots
like OEM calipers do (which are usually aluminium to keep costs down)
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britishtrident
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| posted on 27/7/11 at 06:13 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by thefreak
I've sold a lot of Wilwood calipers for various cars over the past 5 years and the customers haven't had any problems withe the calipers
flexing. Maybe back in the early days they did, but not with the more recent forged calipers.
Also, the calipers are aluminium, but the pistons are stainless steel, so dont have a problem with corroding, and as such dont need dust seals/boots
like OEM calipers do (which are usually aluminium to keep costs down)
Engineering in aluminium alloy 101
No structural engineering product is made of aluminium ----- most commonly what we refer to as aluminium is really one of the many
aluminium-silicon alloys.
Although has a beneficial effect on many properties the forging process has no effect on the stiffness of a material
compared with other manufacturing methods as a rule of thumb the Youngs Modulus for aluminium based light alloys is just above 1/3 that of
steel or iron ---- ie. if you have two beams one made in steel one made in an alluminium alloy but otherwise identical and test load both
beams until they reach deflection "X" the steel beam will need to be loaded to almost 3 times the load of the light alloy beam before it
reaches the same deflection.
[Edited on 27/7/11 by britishtrident]
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