lordbenny
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| posted on 18/3/13 at 12:30 PM |
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Land Rover Calipers & Yellowstuff pads!!!
I've got Land Rover Discovery rear calipers on the front of my Westfield (Westfield started using them when new Ford M16 calipers became hard to
come by)
The car came with Yellowstuff pads in when I bought it, however, I have never been too happy with the stopping power of the car. The rears will lock
up under heavy braking but the fronts wont (even with the brake bias set full on front).
Question - As the calipers are for a 2 ton Land Rover would the Yellowstuff pad's compound be any different to a compound for pad suitable for a
550kg kit car? If so, that would explain why they're not stopping so well.
I'm pretty sure EBC dont do a separate pads to suit the Land Rover caliper for lightweight sportscars!
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Peteff
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| posted on 18/3/13 at 12:53 PM |
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You might do better with some good quality standard road pads that heat up quicker instead of being formulated to last on a race track.
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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lordbenny
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| posted on 18/3/13 at 01:13 PM |
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Funny you should say that because I put a set of standard Mintex pads in today.
Will have to wait 4 or 5 months before the weather gets good enough to test them out though! 
[Edited on 18/3/13 by lordbenny]
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britishtrident
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| posted on 18/3/13 at 02:30 PM |
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Discovery 1 rear callipers are a much smaller bore 1.625" when compared to Cortina front units which are 2.125" bore.
If you want more powerful front brakes the easy way is to fit Cortina callipers.
If you have twin master cylinders and a balance bar fitting a smaller bore master cylinder in the front circuit is an alternative approach.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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lordbenny
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| posted on 18/3/13 at 02:47 PM |
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It was really the pad compound I was questioning. Im sure the caliper is adequate otherwise Westfield wouldn't have fitted to their factory
cars.
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rdodger
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| posted on 18/3/13 at 03:08 PM |
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I had yellowstuff on my Libra and thought they were horrible!. Worse than the OE pads it had originally. EBC pads seem to vary a lot. I had
greenstuff years ago that were great, changed them and they were terrible.
Mintex were a massive improvement in terms of feel and stopping power.
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 18/3/13 at 05:00 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by lordbenny
It was really the pad compound I was questioning. Im sure the caliper is adequate otherwise Westfield wouldn't have fitted to their factory
cars.
Are you also using the same master cylinder setup that Westfield are using? If the brake balance is so bad that you need to adjust pad materials to
make it work, then it sounds like there is a design problem or fault in the system.
[Edited on 18/3/13 by MikeRJ]
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lordbenny
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| posted on 18/3/13 at 05:35 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
Are you also using the same master cylinder setup that Westfield are using? If the brake balance is so bad that you need to adjust pad materials to
make it work, then it sounds like there is a design problem or fault in the system.
I am using the same master cylinder that westfield is using but I need to adjust the pad material because I think the material is totally unsuitable
for my car. I cant know for sure until the sun comes out and I can test how it brakes with standard pads.
I was wondering if there was anyone on here that new about Yellowstuff pads to the extent that they know if the compound is different between a 4x4
pad and a standard road car pad.
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britishtrident
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| posted on 18/3/13 at 07:29 PM |
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Brake Pads 101
"Standard" replacement brake pads vary enormously in fade resistance it pays to buy a top quality brand ie Ferrodo or Mintex as
these give more consistent friction across the band of working temperatures likely to be found in road use.
Yellow stuff pads are the exact opposite they won't start working until the brakes are quite hot.
If the front brakes cannot be made to lock but the rears do from slow speed on a good clean dry road surface there is a major component mismatch
in the design of the system. ie in this case smaller hydraulic area callipers have been substituted for larger ones because the original
callipers are in short supply.
Rear brakes locking but the fronts won't is a sure way to end up in a ditch.
Because pad friction coefficient varies with temperature changing brake pad material at one end is not solution to brake bias problems.
[Edited on 18/3/13 by britishtrident]
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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whitestu
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| posted on 18/3/13 at 08:27 PM |
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I've got Yellowstuff in Sierra calipers and they work better from cold than OEM.
When I spoke to EBC they reckon the friction co-efficient is higher than OEM and having used them quite a bit I think they are right. When I swapped
over pedal pressure needed was noticeably less.
Stu
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britishtrident
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| posted on 18/3/13 at 08:37 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by whitestu
I've got Yellowstuff in Sierra calipers and they work better from cold than OEM.
When I spoke to EBC they reckon the friction co-efficient is higher than OEM and having used them quite a bit I think they are right. When I swapped
over pedal pressure needed was noticeably less.
Stu
That contradicts the info on their web site which states they only get into working range from 100c.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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lordbenny
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| posted on 18/3/13 at 09:07 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
If the front brakes cannot be made to lock but the rears do from slow speed on a good clean dry road surface there is a major component mismatch
in the design of the system.
But a LOT of track day cars have brake bias controllers and I know that Westies have a habit of locking the rears because there is a lot less weight
over the back wheels.
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whitestu
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| posted on 18/3/13 at 09:40 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by whitestu
I've got Yellowstuff in Sierra calipers and they work better from cold than OEM.
When I spoke to EBC they reckon the friction co-efficient is higher than OEM and having used them quite a bit I think they are right. When I swapped
over pedal pressure needed was noticeably less.
Stu
That contradicts the info on their web site which states they only get into working range from 100c
The ones I have definitely work fine from completely cold. I'm very happy with them, particularly as they are only £30 ish per set.
Stuk
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britishtrident
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| posted on 20/3/13 at 04:49 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by lordbenny
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
If the front brakes cannot be made to lock but the rears do from slow speed on a good clean dry road surface there is a major component mismatch
in the design of the system.
But a LOT of track day cars have brake bias controllers and I know that Westies have a habit of locking the rears because there is a lot less weight
over the back wheels.
Yes but the front is also much lighter most cars of the general 7 style have weight distribution with the driver on board of between 50/50
and 47/53 the engine type making more difference than the chassis type. In any event the book Locost chassis is very closely related to the
original pre-litigation Westfield chassis, some say an almost exact copy.
For track use the desired brake balance is very slightly towards the front in all conditions, so fronts just lock before the rears and no
more. For road use of course more front bias is needed to give a bit extra safety margin. The rear end locking will put a car into the
barriers in the blink of an eye.
Seven style cars generally have brake systems that work at much lower hydraulic pressures than the donor vehicles, there are two main reasons for
this
(1) lack of servo.
(2) Reduced pedal leverage.
Going back to the original post in the thread Discovery rear callipers which Westfield used as substitutes for the Cortina callipers have only 62%
of the effective hydraulic area of the Cortina calliper. In simple terms if it it takes 400 Newtons acting on the pedal to do a 1g stop on a
car fitted with Cortina callipers, fit Discovery rears it takes *very roughly* a whacking great 660N to perform an equivalent 1g stop. The
maths same applies to the force required to lock the front wheels. Any way you look at it that is a fair push on the pedal way above drivers
of modern cars or trucks have ever experienced
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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