FuryRebuild
|
| posted on 16/5/14 at 11:08 AM |
|
|
does anyone have experience of electric handbrakes?
I've been thinking ...
My fury has cosworth brakes on the back, with a sierra handbrake cable and escort handbrake - all very standard and familiar to most on here.
Similarlay (I expect) to most on here, I've always struggled to get the handbrake to bind well - I think the handbrake cable has too many
corners to go around.
So, I got to thinking, rather than run a hydraulic handbrake which will not pass MOT, are there any other options. I have a few ideas, two of which
assume an IRS and one doesn't:
- This one is inspired by a rallying mate of mine with a hydraulic handbrake, who would stick a screwdriver through the transmission tunnel into the
propshaft UJ to prove to the scrutineers that he had a way of mechanically locking it. So, taking this idea to its logical extreme, one could mount a
pair of solenoids on the transmission tunnel, pointing into the UJ. Hit a button, have the solenoids go out, plunger locks the prop. If you use a
laser and a photoreceptor shining through the UJ, you accurately know where the prop is, you can guarantee the solenoids will go in. Advantages
- simple, but the ally panelling in the transmission tunnel we all tend to go for isn't strong enough to support the brackets. A weld-in cradle
on the other hand would do it. Disadvantages - no use if you're drifting
 .
or
- use a pair of electric handbrake calipers, as per many modern cars. It seems simple to make a bracket, bolt them on and give it 12v when it wants
it. There are advantages to throwing away the handbrake cable and routing, bracketing, handbrake, etc. and the disadvantage is that you're
adding to the unsprung weight. I think the overall weight would be quite similar.
Has anyone worked with electric handbrake calipers, and can share some wisdom?
Thanks
Mark
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
|
|
|
|
|
adithorp
|
| posted on 16/5/14 at 11:25 AM |
|
|
There's basically 2 types.
1, Simple electric handbrake as used by (Citroen, Renault, Ford, etc) where an electric motor drives a gear and pulls a cable to the standard type
h/brake calipers.
2, Complex electronic (as used on some VAG, Merc,etc) which has a (swish) motor in the caliper and an ECU to control and adjust it (even require a
controler to reset when replacing pads).
First motors fail/sieze and still require cables and the bends you already have. Second would be a can(bus) of worms to retro-fit I'd expect.
Are you sure your lack of handbrake isn't just because of the lost leverage that happens as a result of the way (some) Furys have the lever
modified to operate at the anglethey are mounted?
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
|
|
|
FuryRebuild
|
| posted on 16/5/14 at 11:29 AM |
|
|
Most of the videos I'd seen seemed to be of the second type - can(bus) of worms.
Mine is definitely the vertical, modified lever. If it's anything like yours, it then drags the cables over a bolt to get tension, quickly
shafting the cables. one advantage (maybe) of the solenoid is that it will get the full pull without the faff of the lever and then the bolt, and then
the cable is more or less routing in a similar way to a production car?
It may be worth a little googling I feel.
Thanks
M
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
|
|
|
FuryRebuild
|
| posted on 16/5/14 at 11:42 AM |
|
|
Hmmm - these guys do a kit...
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/E-Stopp-Electric-Emergency-Brake-Kit,
65217.html
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
|
|
|
adithorp
|
| posted on 16/5/14 at 12:30 PM |
|
|
I fitted a different anchor point for my outer cables at the bottom of the tunnel to give better alignment. Then I went for the Wilwood h/brake
calipers thathave poorleverage and ended upadding a multiplying lever across the tunnel. I've now got a nice feeling h/brake that holds easily
on any slope. There's loads of room in a Fury tunnel to do something similar... as long as you haven't done something daft like put the
fuel tank there 
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
|
|
|
FuryRebuild
|
| posted on 16/5/14 at 12:39 PM |
|
|
you actually made me laugh out loud, and fire me fish and chips out.
an actuator based solution would let me also avoid building hard points into my transmission tunnel there, so there's an added benefit of losing
complexity
this madcap scheme may have legs.
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
|
|
|
me!
|
| posted on 16/5/14 at 01:30 PM |
|
|
Losing complexity by adding a laser, a photoreceptor and a pair of solenoids of some description?!
|
|
|
mcerd1
|
| posted on 16/5/14 at 02:01 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by FuryRebuild
an actuator based solution would let me also avoid building hard points into my transmission tunnel there, so there's an added benefit of losing
complexity
I know what you mean....
but simple brackets / pivots that only need a bit of expander grease every couple of years vs electronic things than rely on an ECU
I think you just need a better route for the 'old fashioned' cables
also I'm yet to meet anyone who actually likes electronic hand brakes !
-
|
|
|
FuryRebuild
|
| posted on 16/5/14 at 02:04 PM |
|
|
Seemed so to me. Simple bit of work with a microcontroller . I think I'll go for that kit linked to, or buy a linear actuator and weld up some
brackets. I done know much about controlling linear actuators though.
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
|
|
|
stevebubs
|
| posted on 16/5/14 at 02:11 PM |
|
|
I believe aftermarket electric handbrakes are common in the notability work...worth exploring suppliers in this area?
Let me know if you find something - I'd love to get rid of my handbrake from the tunnel...
|
|
|
FuryRebuild
|
| posted on 16/5/14 at 02:15 PM |
|
|
I rang a notability supplier this morning. £750 without vat. Ffs, for a linear actuator.
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
|
|
|
ali f27
|
| posted on 16/5/14 at 06:02 PM |
|
|
I did what adithorp said and mine now works a treat simple fix and works brill on my willwoods and pass mot last time
|
|
|
FuryRebuild
|
| posted on 16/5/14 at 06:20 PM |
|
|
True - Adithorp's is a neat solution, but I think I'll go actuator. It also means I don't need to add a load of hard-points into the
composite transmission tunnel, and may even locate the actuator in my engine bay (corner weighting says to put a little more weight over the front
left wheel if possible.
I've checked, and I do have room under my prop at the back for this as well - just depends on how I want to do it.
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
|
|
|
matt_gsxr
|
| posted on 16/5/14 at 09:10 PM |
|
|
The VAG electronic handbrake is c**p on my 54 Audi A6.
Each of the cables have failed, which can leave the brake locked on.
With a lever you get nice haptic feedback, with an electric switch you get confused.
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
|
|
|
FuryRebuild
|
| posted on 16/5/14 at 09:23 PM |
|
|
Nah, don't care about haptic feedback on a handbrake. I want it to pass mot without a faff and make the manufacture of my composite transmission
tunnel easier. Ideally I can do it for less mass or move the mass about.
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
|
|
|
owelly
|
| posted on 16/5/14 at 10:36 PM |
|
|
Perforated wheel/sprocket on a propshaft flange and a solenoid acting on a spring loaded plunger. You come to a stop, actuate the solenoid which
pushes the spring loaded plunger, then you roll the car until the plunger springs into a hole.
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
|
|
|
peter030371
|
| posted on 17/5/14 at 07:50 AM |
|
|
Read all the above with much interest. In the name of making things simple and light the combined rear caliper and parking brake make a lot of sense
to me on a simple car like a Striker. From what I have read on the OEM website though they tend to have built in controllers that then require CAN bus
controllers which makes it complicated again 
The solenoid pulling on the cable seems a halfway house, you end up putting in as much complexity (possibly more) as you remove just in a
'better' place.
I only ever used the handbrake as a parking brake on my last Striker if parked on a hill or in a public place, never needed it for hills starts as
heel and toe is easy enough. I also learnt a long time ago that putting on the hand brake with hot pads, i.e. after a track session, is a bad thing
and either the car moves as things cool down or the pads stick to the disc...... so a prop lock is possibly the best solution and I don't know
why I hadn't thought of that before 
The only draw backs I can see to a prop lock is no handbrake turns (don't do them any way) and if the battery dies you could be stuck with the
brake on..... but I have never had a flat battery on the Striker.
Now off to google a suitable automotive spec latching solenoid 
|
|
|
ali f27
|
| posted on 17/5/14 at 08:19 AM |
|
|
Some kind of locking pin sounds dodgy if it locks when power on what happens if you lose power when on its own on a hill and if power holds it off
what happens if you lose power when mobil can leave it in gear if you want when parked that locks your gear box.
the whole idea of it being manual is your imput is needed
|
|
|
iank
|
| posted on 17/5/14 at 08:49 AM |
|
|
Personally having had the hydraulic brakes fail completely with no warning as I was pulling off the motorway (on a brand new hire car) I was rather
glad of a brake I could pull on to scrub off some speed. So locking the prop isn't acceptable in my mind as the handbrake should also an
emergency brake to use when moving.
--
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Anonymous
|
|
|
FuryRebuild
|
| posted on 17/5/14 at 09:36 AM |
|
|
IanK
You speak some sense. I am discounting the option anyway in favour of some form of actuator model. If you tried to apply it as an emergency brake,
assuming it didn't explode, the rear wheels would lock, totally.
It would take some kind of major issue to knack all four brakes on a dual circuit car - what happened?
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
|
|
|
matt_claydon
|
| posted on 17/5/14 at 10:00 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by FuryRebuild
IanK
You speak some sense. I am discounting the option anyway in favour of some form of actuator model. If you tried to apply it as an emergency brake,
assuming it didn't explode, the rear wheels would lock, totally.
It would take some kind of major issue to knack all four brakes on a dual circuit car - what happened?
The handbrake should be able to be used when in motion to guard against failures not protected by the dual circuits (pedal, pushrod, pivot bolt,
clevis pin, m/c mounting bolts, etc). An electric park brake should be 'graduable' so that if used in motion it doesn't just lock
the wheels and send you spinning down the road. Production cars know the vehicle is in motion and don't latch on, they wind the brake on
progressively as you hold the switch; if you release the switch it winds off again. You can modulate the braking by pulsing the switch.
|
|
|
blakep82
|
| posted on 17/5/14 at 10:01 AM |
|
|
Surely if the brakes were good enough to hold something bigger and heavier before, leverage is the problem somewhere? Longer lever or ratio needed
somewhere maybe?
Just read the bit where you said the cable gets dragged over bolts? Friction will be an issue, proper cable with outers cables would be a big
improvement surely?
[Edited on 17/5/14 by blakep82]
________________________
IVA manual link http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1081997083
don't write OT on a new thread title, you're creating the topic, everything you write is very much ON topic!
|
|
|
iank
|
| posted on 17/5/14 at 10:39 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by FuryRebuild
IanK
You speak some sense. I am discounting the option anyway in favour of some form of actuator model. If you tried to apply it as an emergency brake,
assuming it didn't explode, the rear wheels would lock, totally.
It would take some kind of major issue to knack all four brakes on a dual circuit car - what happened?
From what the AA guy said the clevis had come out so pedal and master cylinder weren't connected anymore. He couldn't find an R
clip/split pin so I suspect it had failed and dropped out or not been fitted at manufacture. It was a 1993 ish Ford Orion.
--
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Anonymous
|
|
|
FuryRebuild
|
| posted on 18/5/14 at 10:10 AM |
|
|
Ford Orion - I thought that was the best car ever <winks>.
I feel I'm on the right track with an emergency-brake system, it will get the handbrake on, but won't lock the wheels. Then I have a
button on the dash, and don't have to modify my transmission tunnel (and I've already made the moulds for that one).
When all you have is a hammer, everything around you is a nail.
www.furyrebuild.co.uk
|
|
|
prawnabie
|
| posted on 18/5/14 at 11:10 AM |
|
|
Newer Renaults use the motor on calliper setup. Either way the system is pretty complex as it monitors the wheel speed when parked to detect movement
and increases the braking force if needed.
|
|
|
