02GF74
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 posted on 2/5/08 at 06:25 AM |
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brake drag - strugglin'
spend 4-5 hours trying to find out why the near side rear drum (English Axle) is dragging. Not major but gets hot enough so you cannot keep your
finger on the drum. The drum itself is nicely polished 
Had taken on board Mr W ideas but the lever was already operating on 3 clicks but even so, adjusted so the cable is a loose as can be.
Not convinced it is cable length.
When hadbrake is pulled (drum locked as it should be) then released, there is still some drag.
Pushing the lever to which the rod is attached towards the drum frees the drum.
That is kinda telling me that the mechanism is not strong enough to get back into its pre-handbrake pulled position.
possible reasons - cable is still too short, the mechanism itself is worn or the springs are too weak (the latter on is unlikely since they are new).
Can the brake cylinder be seized? It is bran new part??? and would that affect the handbrake mechanism?
So looking for ideas once more.
plan of action is:
1. fit another adjuster (lucklily I have a spare one)
2. fit extension bracket onto the rod mechanism to lengthen cable
3. fit worn shoes (but I think the gap will be taken up by the ratchet adjuster so that ain't gonna work)
4. fit another drum
5. ?
The Hyanes mentions the shoes are handed - from what I could see they are identical and checking with the spare drum assembley I am pretty sure they
are fitted correctly but you know how it is and you start having doubts....
Also the little plastic bracket that clips to the rubber gaiter was not fitted but I cannot see how this would make a difference - I did fit one and
the lever does not contact it so serves no purpose as far as I can see.
.... over to you ....
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flak monkey
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| posted on 2/5/08 at 06:38 AM |
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Return springs knackered? If they are old ones, fit a new set.
Did you put some copper slip on the contact points between the shoes and the back plate? If they are dry they will almost certainly stick.
The cylinder will have no effect on the handbrake.
David
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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02GF74
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| posted on 2/5/08 at 06:41 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
Return springs knackered? If they are old ones, fit a new set.
Brand new.
Did you put some copper slip on the contact points between the shoes and the back plate? If they are dry they will almost certainly stick.
Yep, I was slpping it on like it was going out of fashion....
The cylinder will have no effect on the handbrake.
That's what I thought - so one item off the list.
David
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 2/5/08 at 08:01 AM |
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to adjust rear drum brakes I,
1) slacken off the handbrake till it does nothing
2) stanp on the pedal to center the shoes
3) adjust the shoes till they start to drag
4) stamp on the pedal again
5) slacken of the aduster till the shoes stop dragging
6) adjust the handbrake till just before it starts to drag with the lever down and then slacken it just a fraction more.
7) stamp on the pedal again
8) check there is no dragging
9) job done
Fame is when your old car is plastered all over the internet
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02GF74
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| posted on 2/5/08 at 08:05 AM |
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^^^^ hmmmmm, just one incy teeny miniscule flaw with the above - the brakes are not like a Land Rover with adjustable snail cams but shoes are
self-adjsuting.
(mk2 escorts with front drums had manual adjusters but not the rear)
[Edited on 2/5/08 by 02GF74]
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 2/5/08 at 08:25 AM |
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the self adjusters are sh$t, either drill an access hole in the back plate to get to the adjuster with a screw driver or just take off the drum adjust
it and then put the drum back on.
If you insist in trying to get the adjust er to work (good luck) make sure it totally clean and only lightly greased. I think I've seen one work
correctly once in about oh 20 odd years...
[Edited on 2/5/08 by Mr Whippy]
Fame is when your old car is plastered all over the internet
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Bluemoon
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| posted on 2/5/08 at 09:08 AM |
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I'd agree with Mr W about the adjusters not working..
As far as I can work out that's the main reason a garage changes the shoes when a hand brakes not working, once changed magicaly the handbrake
starts to work again.. but the shoes removed willl not be warn out, just that the adjuster did'nt adjust! Drum brakes are bit agracutral in
there engineering, I'm allways amazed they work as well as they do!
Dan
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02GF74
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| posted on 2/5/08 at 10:14 AM |
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quite hard to describe - but the hanbrake mechanism has a flat plate with a pivoting arm on one side and a serated wheel over whcih a serated cam arm
moves,
should the wheel be able to rotate?
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JAG
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| posted on 2/5/08 at 10:41 AM |
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No the wheel should be locked solid in the adjuster plate and the cam shaped bit should move.
Justin
Who is this super hero? Sarge? ...No.
Rosemary, the telephone operator? ...No.
Penry, the mild-mannered janitor? ...Could be!
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02GF74
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| posted on 2/5/08 at 10:45 AM |
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^^ damn so that's not the cause - that part has nothing to do with handbrake operation but is to take up wear inthe shoes?
wonder if an old rubber cover has hardened to prevent the lever from working smoothly ......?
Is it possible the shoes are not symmetrical and I have fitted unpaired shoes on each side?
[Edited on 2/5/08 by 02GF74]
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 2/5/08 at 10:48 AM |
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Yes that’s the adjuster screw. Basically the idea is that by operating the handbrake the arm moves up and down turning the adjuster wheel,
you'll note it engages on the cogged wheel in only one direction so that it winds out the adjuster screw (there is a thread in there) until the
shoes reach the drum, then no more adjustment can take place. So infact every time the handbrake is used the brakes are meant to self adjust, great in
theory but in practice it’s a bit pants. Sounds like you haven’t taken it apart before so do so get it all ship shape and try again.
[Edited on 2/5/08 by Mr Whippy]
Fame is when your old car is plastered all over the internet
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Peteff
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| posted on 2/5/08 at 10:50 AM |
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Take the adjuster bar out and the spindles on the two bits either end will be seized. WD it to death and work it with mole grips or a hammer till it
frees up. When you put it back together adjust it with a flat screwdriver between the round knurled wheel and the cam till you can just get the drum
back on.
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 2/5/08 at 10:54 AM |
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this is I think similar to what you have, where the yellowlever catches on the cog and turns it totake up play in the shoes when the handbrake is
operated
 
Rescued attachment drum-brake4.jpg
Fame is when your old car is plastered all over the internet
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02GF74
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| posted on 2/5/08 at 10:55 AM |
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no - no seized parts - it was overhauled, painter, greased etc.
my understanding is that the adjuster is a one way thing and takes up shoe wear - the pivoting lever on the other end is repsonsible for moving the
shoes when the handbrake is pulled.
prettyr sure that is the case since when I pull the h-brake on, I do not see the adjuster move and by pushing the lever at the other end, it released
the shoes - at no point do I mess with adjuster.
so the more I think about it, the lever is the problem - maybe it is stiff or worn or catching on the rubber gaiter or being pulled enough by the
cable - I'm finding it hard to accpet he adjuster is the cause.
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02GF74
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| posted on 2/5/08 at 11:00 AM |
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this is what I have, driver side this one.
(BTW that top spring is upside down but doesn't affect operation
 
Rescued attachment brake.jpg
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 2/5/08 at 11:48 AM |
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Even for a drum brake that is a pile of...
Where’d you find that anyway, on a caravan? Why not measure the inner drum diameter and fit a new back plate and shoe mechanics, like of another
car?
You’re going to have to slacken the handbrake off, forget about this 3 clicks stuff more like 5 or 6, don’t like the spring next to the cylinder,
hardly looks like its under tension and it’s on upsides down anyway.
Fame is when your old car is plastered all over the internet
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02GF74
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| posted on 2/5/08 at 11:54 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
Where’d you find that anyway, on a caravan?
Ford English axle, as fitted to mk2 escort - think I mentioned that in very 1st post
Why not measure the inner drum diameter and fit a new back plate and shoe mechanics, like of another car?
You’re going to have to slacken the handbrake off, forget about this 3 clicks stuff more like 5 or 6, don’t like the spring next to the cylinder,
hardly looks like its under tension and it’s on upsides down anyway.
maybe but that side works. Bear in mind that photo was taken off the car so there is no brake fluid. The pistons were pushed fully in so
that would account for the lack of tension in the springs.
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britishtrident
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| posted on 2/5/08 at 12:06 PM |
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What handbrake cable are you using ? --- if you have the original Escort cable the cause of NS rear brake problems is usually that stupid rubber flap
hinge that supports the cross rod.
The simplest solution ditch it and the cross rod and fit a late Morris Ital cable.
[Edited on 2/5/08 by britishtrident]
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daviep
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| posted on 2/5/08 at 12:16 PM |
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Okay, as always back to basics. You cannot start proper methodical fault finding until you are sure you have the basics correct.
Questions
1: Is the handbrake cable free (not sticky)
2: Are the wheel cylinders free
3: Is the fitment kit the correct one bearing in mind there are two sizes of brakes
If all these are OK this how I would proceed
1: I would start by making sure that the brakes are assembled 100% correctly ie. fit the top spring properly.
2: Remove the hand brake cable from the actuator completely, this rules out any problems with the cable. Make sure the actuator is fully off.
3: Slacken the adjuster fully and refit the drum. It should be free, tapping either side of the drum with a hammer will cenrtilise the shoes
4: Press the brake pedal and try and listen for the adjusters working
5: Try the drum, it should still be free. Might need a tap
6: Remove drum and with a screwdriver expand the shoes to work the adjuster 1 click at a time refitting the drum each click and centrillising the
shoes (tapping each side) until the shoes just scuff the drum.
7: Refit drum and press brake pedal, try drum again and check it's still free.
8: Move handbrake actuator by hand before refitting handbrake cable. Check it returns to the off position and that the drum is still free.
9: Refitt handbrake cable. Adjust cable so that it is just slack when the hand brake is off.
10: Function handbrake then check drum is still free and operating lever has fully returned.
If it was me I would also file a chamfer on the leading edges of both shoes
Long winded as usual
Davie
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02GF74
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| posted on 2/5/08 at 12:17 PM |
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yep - it has the rod and the rubber bush - I applied copper grease to both to no avail.
not sure but there may be enough stiction in it to prevent the lever from moving back....
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 2/5/08 at 12:27 PM |
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I have the same mechanism in my back axle - works OK as long as it's clean and lubricated. You do need to be sure that the 'omega'
spring on the ratchet actually has some spring in it though.
I went over to a Marina handbrake cable though, with a 'swinging arm' in the middle - I'll see if I can find a picture.
FOUND ONE!
You can see the swinging arm on the back of the axle.
One piece of 'inner' is the one from the handbrake cable. The other piece is an off-cut that just goes between the brake arm and the
swinging arm. When I pull on the handbrake both lengths pull together (if you see what I mean).
HTH
David
[Edited on 2/5/08 by David Jenkins]
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NS Dev
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| posted on 3/5/08 at 11:31 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
the self adjusters are sh$t, either drill an access hole in the back plate to get to the adjuster with a screw driver or just take off the drum adjust
it and then put the drum back on.
If you insist in trying to get the adjust er to work (good luck) make sure it totally clean and only lightly greased. I think I've seen one work
correctly once in about oh 20 odd years...
[Edited on 2/5/08 by Mr Whippy]
Will second the above.
They never ever work. On Opel Mantas (my pet subject) we usually swap the entire mechanism over for the earlier, manual adjusting type. This simply
then required a 17mm spanner applied gently once every few months...................
Obviously on a ford axle it will be different, but the principle of the self adjusters is the same and equally crap.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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paulf
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| posted on 3/5/08 at 08:04 PM |
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I also used a Marina handbrake cable , i welded a pivot for a compensator arm onto the axle and also fitted a return spring to the arm to pull the
brakes off .The brakes are self adjusters and ive never had any problems .
Paul.
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paulf
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| posted on 3/5/08 at 08:10 PM |
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Can you put a tension spring on the rod where it is supported by the axle bush? This may be enough to return it to its rest position.
Paul.
quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
yep - it has the rod and the rubber bush - I applied copper grease to both to no avail.
not sure but there may be enough stiction in it to prevent the lever from moving back....
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tks
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| posted on 4/5/08 at 07:19 PM |
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the thing with the self adjuster is that (if i'm wrong i can be corrected)
they adjust in steps wich are to rough to be slip free... sow basicly i think that once a 2000miles you get a new notch and when you get a new notch
you have 200miles a bit extra wearing until it is 100% free cant this be true???
then the thing you describe would be just normal.....
or are those self adjuster 100% proportional....
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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