Jesus-Ninja
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| posted on 11/8/08 at 10:46 AM |
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When does a build become a car?
There may be occasions when, for the sakes of space / getting in the garage to service either of our road cars, that my rollign chassis may be put on
the road for short periods.
What's the legality or this? It has no tax, but then it doesn't exist as a car, and would have no engine / seats etc.
I can put a skip / trailer / pram / push bike without tax or other concerns. How would the law view a spaceframe with four wheels?
[Edited on 11/8/08 by Jesus-Ninja]
Suspension geometry tool here >>> http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=81376
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Macbeast
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| posted on 11/8/08 at 10:50 AM |
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I would guess it's not a car until it's registered.
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Jesus-Ninja
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| posted on 11/8/08 at 10:51 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Macbeast
I would guess it's not a car until it's registered.
But I don't think, for example, I can keep a fully functioning race car on the highway, even just parked.
Suspension geometry tool here >>> http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=81376
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tegwin
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| posted on 11/8/08 at 10:55 AM |
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Accoding to the Oxford Dictionary a car is...
quote:
A wheeled vehicle or conveyance
Therefore as soon as the item has 4 wheels, a seat or two and a functioing drive system, it is, per-se a car!
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Would the last person who leaves the country please switch off the lights and close the door!
www.verticalhorizonsmedia.tv
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smart51
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| posted on 11/8/08 at 10:56 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Macbeast
I would guess it's not a car until it's registered.
But if it looks like a car, it is a car to someone who wants to prosecute you. A car shaped objetc with wheels, an engine, seats, belts etc. is a
car, registered or not. It is illegal to leave an unregistered car on the road.
I'm not sure there is a legal definition but as soon as something is recognisable as a car you put yourself at risk. A metal frame with wheels
could be a trailer or a trolley. Put a steering wheel on the column and people might say "its a car".
I would guess that without an engine it is not a motor vehicle. Unless, of course, it looks like one.
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Jesus-Ninja
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| posted on 11/8/08 at 11:05 AM |
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I suppose, as well, that the thing has to be seen first! And then someone has to work out who's it is.
Sounds like frame with wheels and nothing else, could pass as not-a-car, but anything else (seats, steering column, engine etc) and it's going
to be questionable.
Or I just get a body shell like this....
Suspension geometry tool here >>> http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=81376
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loggyboy
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| posted on 11/8/08 at 11:18 AM |
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Legally the wording would be when would it become a 'motor vehicle;
And from diggin in to it a few years ago when i got done for using a Goped on the road it is basically down to if an average person would consider it
a motor vehicle.
Its case law dating back quite a few years when someone got done for using a gokart style thing on the road and went all the way to the High Court.
[Edited on 11/8/08 by loggyboy]
Mistral Motorsport
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loggyboy
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| posted on 11/8/08 at 11:44 AM |
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Acctually slightly different to that of what i remembered:
Lord Parker CJ in Burns v Currell 1963 2 KB 433. That case concerned a
mechanically propelled vehicle known as a Go-Kart. On the facts found it was held not to be a motor vehicle in terms of the statutory definition but
in considering the test which should be applied in deciding whether a particular vehicle was intended for use on roads for the purposes of the
statutory definition, Lord Parker said (at page 440):-
"Thus, in the ordinary case, it seems to me that there will be little difficulty
in saying whether a particular vehicle is a motor vehicle or not. But to define exactly the meaning of the words 'intended or adapted' is
by no means easy. For my part, I think that the expression 'intended', to take that word first, does not mean 'intended by the user
of the vehicle either at the moment of the alleged offence or for the future'. I do not think that it means the intention of the manufacturer or
the wholesaler or the retailer; and it may be, as Salmon
J said in Daley v Hargreaves, that it is not referring to the intention as such of any particular purpose. Salmon J. suggested that the word
'intended' might be paraphrased as 'suitable or apt'. It may be merely a difference of wording, but I prefer to make the test
whether a reasonable person looking at the vehicle would say that one of its users would be a road user. In deciding that question, the reasonable man
would not, as I conceive, have to envisage what some man losing his senses would do with a vehicle; nor an isolated user or a user in an emergency.
The real question is: Is some general use on the roads contemplated as one of the users? Approaching the matter in that way, at the end of the case
the justices would have to ask themselves: has it been proved beyond a reasonable doubt that any reasonable person looking at the Go-Kart would say
that one of its uses would be a use on the road?".
Mistral Motorsport
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charlierevell
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| posted on 11/8/08 at 12:27 PM |
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Cant you just put an upturned skip over it? Then they wouldnt know it was there!
Tango orange is an 'IN' colour!!
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Humbug
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| posted on 11/8/08 at 12:30 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Jesus-Ninja
There may be occasions when, for the sakes of space / getting in the garage to service either of our road cars, that my rollign chassis may be put on
the road for short periods.
What's the legality or this? It has no tax, but then it doesn't exist as a car, and would have no engine / seats etc.
I can put a skip / trailer / pram / push bike without tax or other concerns. How would the law view a spaceframe with four wheels?
[Edited on 11/8/08 by Jesus-Ninja]
Actually, I'm not sure you can put a skip, etc. on the roadway just like that. OK, so no tax or MOT  but you have to get a permit for a skip,
and I would imagine that if you leave other things on the road without a permit they could probably have you for littering, obstructing the highway or
some such thing...
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mr henderson
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| posted on 11/8/08 at 12:52 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Humbug
obstructing the highway or some such thing...
Correct, obstructing the Queen's Highway is an offence, there is no automatic right to park any object, vehicle or whatever anywhere on one her
roads.
John
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mistergrumpy
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| posted on 11/8/08 at 01:01 PM |
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There's the whole mechanically powered vehicle thing but I looked into this at work specifically as I wondered the same. The roundabout
definition (I can't remember the correct wording) is if the vehicle is capable of being made roadworthy without a whole lot of effort. So for
example if it had no engine in it then it wouldn't be considered a vehicle. Something like a seized brake which although rendered the vehicle
immovable at that time would still make it a vehicle.
Sounds a bit confusing. I'm back in work tomorrow, I'll have dig and come up with the correct wording. There's lots of case laws
around though.
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smart51
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| posted on 11/8/08 at 01:33 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
there is no automatic right to park any object, vehicle or whatever anywhere on one her roads.
Quite so, there is no legal right to park on a public road. But there is no legal prohibition either. In such cases, we have the freedom to park on
the road where a local prohibition does not exist, such as double yellow lines etc.
Does a skip block the Queen's highway or merely restrict it?
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sucksqueezebangblow
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| posted on 11/8/08 at 01:59 PM |
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I'm told a Car is;
A mechanically propelled vehicle having four or more wheels and an unladen weight of more than 410KG that is intended or adapted for use on the road.
Based on that I have it on good authority that until it can be mechanically propelled it is not a Motor Vehicle (unless it is designed or adapted to
be towed by a motor vehicle). We should note though that if the engine is in, there must be a significant amount of work left to do on it to make it
work. Not just a few wires, hoses and connections. If there are only a few steps to make it work it will be classed as a mechanically propelled
vehicle.
It is also likely that even if it is not a motor vehicle, that does not entitle a person to leave it in the road (it'll probably get taken away
and crushed anyway)
And of course once it has been registered it remains a mechanically propelled vehicle even if you take bits off it!
Better to Burnout than to Fade Away JET METAL ~ AndySparrow © 
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James
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| posted on 11/8/08 at 02:24 PM |
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Agree with Humbug, you gotta have some sort of licence/permit to have a skip on the road.
Cheers,
James
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"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses, behind the lines, in the gym and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights."
- Muhammad Ali
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StevieB
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| posted on 11/8/08 at 04:35 PM |
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If the driven wheels are off the ground, then it's not sbject to tax (otherwise you'd have to tax a car just so you tow it on a
trailer).
Obstructing the highway is another matter altogether, but if you have other cars parked in the same street, you could easily argue that a precedence
has been set.
Top and bottomg of it is that unless you'e planning on leaving it there for more than a few hours, it's probably not worth the overthought
that some people give it.
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Jesus-Ninja
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| posted on 11/8/08 at 05:10 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by StevieB
If the driven wheels are off the ground, then it's not sbject to tax (otherwise you'd have to tax a car just so you tow it on a trailer).
I know they've closed the loophole where by if your car was on bricks you could not pay tax.
Suspension geometry tool here >>> http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=81376
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StevieB
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| posted on 11/8/08 at 06:25 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Jesus-Ninja
quote:
Originally posted by StevieB
If the driven wheels are off the ground, then it's not sbject to tax (otherwise you'd have to tax a car just so you tow it on a trailer).
I know they've closed the loophole where by if your car was on bricks you could not pay tax.
But if you've temporarily put your unregisered and unaxed car on the road in a safe place that represents no hazard to vehicles on the highway
or pedestrians, then the law should find it easonable not to prosecute in this case. Ie, the copper should probably just tell you to make sure it all
goes back to where it should be - just don't open the conversation with "shouldn't you be off catching eak criminals..." This
tends to put fair and easinable out of the equation
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coozer
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| posted on 11/8/08 at 07:49 PM |
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Skips need a licence and lights to be left on the road. Does that mean even without wheels they are classed as a car??
1972 V8 Jago
1980 Z750
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Jesus-Ninja
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| posted on 12/8/08 at 09:32 AM |
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Maybe I should leave the seats and steering column out and bolt a hitch to the front of it and put a trailer board on the back!
[Edited on 12/8/08 by Jesus-Ninja]
Suspension geometry tool here >>> http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=81376
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RK
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| posted on 14/8/08 at 04:17 PM |
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I think it depends on the local constabulary. Here they can find anything on you if they want to. I assume they are not much different in the UK.
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Jesus-Ninja
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| posted on 15/8/08 at 10:05 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by RK
I think it depends on the local constabulary. Here they can find anything on you if they want to. I assume they are not much different in the UK.
I must admit, I'm pretty friendly with ours. They regularly stop to chat and ask how the projects are coming along 
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