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Middy Engine Choice... Suggestions Please!

scootz - 31/5/10 at 07:33 PM

Right... pretty sure the next car will be a Sylva J15, so planning ahead. What engine... ???

Can't say I'm all that familiar with transverse engines and boxes.

Looking for a donor engine / box with:
Good Power
Low Weight
Slick Gearbox (preferably with LSD)
Reasonably Priced

The first that springs to mind is the K20 Type R engine, but it's a wee bit pricey.

I'm not discounting anything, so K-series to Sigma to Toyota to Duratec... etc. etc.

What do you think?

rost - 31/5/10 at 07:36 PM

3SGTE out of a SW20 mr2?
Should giva a lot of hp for not tooo much money (and you'll be running a stock engine, thus reliable)

[Edited on 31/5/10 by rost]

zilspeed - 31/5/10 at 07:40 PM

Why don't you ask JP himself what he's done so far ?

Honda does sound like a good idea though.

Have you looked in at www.jpsc.org.uk ?

P.S. Good call

[Edited on 31/5/10 by zilspeed]

franky - 31/5/10 at 07:41 PM

quote:
Originally posted by scootz
Right... pretty sure the next car will be a Sylva J15, so planning ahead. What engine... ???

Can't say I'm all that familiar with transverse engines and boxes.

Looking for a donor engine / box with:
Good Power
Low Weight
Slick Gearbox (preferably with LSD)
Reasonably Priced

The first that springs to mind is the K20 Type R engine, but it's a wee bit pricey.

I'm not discounting anything, so K-series to Sigma to Toyota to Duratec... etc. etc.

What do you think?

My better half drives a honda accord type s with the ka24 engine, 2.4ltr 200bhp which is a little restricted in standard form, much cheaper to buy than a type r lump and the same size.

big_wasa - 31/5/10 at 07:44 PM

how much power do you want ?

Pug Gti6 is 167 bhp with 6 speed box. They are all alloy and can be charged to over 400 bhp.
They are cheap
Down side for a midi is they lean back.

Kv6 from a Zs or ZT 175 and 185 bhp again all alloy and chep while they run

scootz - 31/5/10 at 07:46 PM

Cheers guys... keep em coming!

I had a chat with JP and he prefers the Sigma as he enjoys the 'balance' benefits. He's open to anything though.

vtecmike - 31/5/10 at 07:56 PM

honda H22A 200bhp standard!

zilspeed - 31/5/10 at 08:00 PM

quote:
Originally posted by scootz
Cheers guys... keep em coming!

I had a chat with JP and he prefers the Sigma as he enjoys the 'balance' benefits. He's open to anything though.

I would go with the designer.

The Sigma is light and that avoids having a heavy lump over the back end with no danger of getting much of the weight over the front end.

Look where you'll be sitting. How much work will the front end be doing ? Now imagine a heavy engine.

I would take a slightly lower powered but better balanced car any day of the week.

In my old Sylva, the seats are pushed way forward compared to a seven and the engine is also way behind the front axle too.

Balance

rost - 31/5/10 at 08:02 PM

Just thought of the Nissan SR20VE, the 20V version has 204bhp out of the box with dual VVT. They're supposed to be quite revvy (you can see it as the FWD competitor to the BEAMS SGE) And they go fairly cheap iirc.
There's also a 1.6l variant with 175bhp, if a 2l is too heavy
Wikipedia link

[Edited on 31/5/10 by rost]

scootz - 31/5/10 at 08:04 PM

I'm just a little put off by the Sigma's power figures... seems 120bhp is pretty much where it's at.

The Duratec is not a lot heavier (10kg's), but easy for 200bhp.

zilspeed - 31/5/10 at 08:07 PM

quote:
Originally posted by scootz
I'm just a little put off by the Sigma's power figures... seems 120bhp is pretty much where it's at.

The Duratec is not a lot heavier (10kg's), but easy for 200bhp.

Fair enough.
I'll give you that.

Just stick with something acheivable

P.S. 1.7 Zetec S can make much more than 120bhp

scootz - 31/5/10 at 08:08 PM

I had a wee peek at the SR16VE NEO engine... seems like a beaut.

scootz - 31/5/10 at 08:10 PM

quote:
Originally posted by zilspeed
Just stick with something acheivable

My new mantra!

matty h - 31/5/10 at 08:10 PM

How about the older 1.6 honda v tec engine they are around 160bhp.

scootz - 31/5/10 at 08:12 PM

Can anyone think of any that come with LSD's as standard?

stevebubs - 31/5/10 at 08:13 PM

quote:
Originally posted by zilspeed
Why don't you ask JP himself what he's done so far ?

I think "anything" goes is the answer...there's even a v8 riot out there...

stevebubs - 31/5/10 at 08:15 PM

quote:
Originally posted by scootz
Can anyone think of any that come with LSD's as standard?

Rover 620ti ....

zilspeed - 31/5/10 at 08:26 PM

quote:
Originally posted by stevebubs

quote:
Originally posted by zilspeed
Why don't you ask JP himself what he's done so far ?

I think "anything" goes is the answer...there's even a v8 riot out there...

Well, it's not out there, it's in here if you like. (See V8kid for details.)

However, I reckon it's fair to say that there is an element of Skunkworks about it as I understand it.
i.e. it doesn't exactly have JP's 'blessing'.

tomgregory2000 - 31/5/10 at 08:28 PM

VAG 1.8 20v turbo

loads of bits to make them go much quicker and 6 speed box

MakeEverything - 31/5/10 at 08:29 PM

Have you thought about a transaxle? Ive got a midi that im currently in the middle of putting a 2.9 cosworth V6 attached to a UN1 to replace the old renault engine that was in it.

There are loads of options, but all depends if you want to have to make or buy an adapter plate.

V8's are even possible and adapters are available off the shelf. IT all depends on what your target power figures look like, and how much space you have.

scootz - 31/5/10 at 08:33 PM

I could use the RS4 V8 engine and 01X tranny that I have, but I reckon the extra 100kg over a Duratec, etc. set-up would completely unbalance the car.

Besides which... I will probably have to sell it to finance the J15 project

kb58 - 31/5/10 at 08:39 PM

As a data point, I'm using the K24 lump in a project and accurately weighed it. 403 lbs complete, engine, intake, exhaust, alternator, tranny, and axles.

55ant - 31/5/10 at 08:39 PM

6A12,

or 6A13 if you wana go nuts.

scootz - 31/5/10 at 08:43 PM

quote:
Originally posted by kb58
As a data point, I'm using the K24 lump in a project and accurately weighed it. 403 lbs complete, engine, intake, exhaust, alternator, tranny, and axles.

Cheers!

scootz - 31/5/10 at 08:44 PM

Is there a front-wheel drive gearbox that will fit to the Mitsi Evo engines?

55ant - 31/5/10 at 08:45 PM

not sure, but 6A12 is avaliable as its in the fto, also a 6A12 twin turbo is around, but not in an FTO unless i am mistaken.

scootz - 31/5/10 at 08:47 PM

Cheers Ant... forgot about them!

clairetoo - 31/5/10 at 09:57 PM

How about a Mazda V6 - available in 1.8 , 2.0 and 2.5 , small , light and revvy ?

scootz - 31/5/10 at 10:06 PM

It's on the list Claire!

Any idea how much bigger the 2.5 is over the 1.8? Or is it just a case of bigger bores in the same block?

clairetoo - 31/5/10 at 10:10 PM

All three engines share the same block and heads - they just change the bore , stroke and rod lengths .

matt_gsxr - 31/5/10 at 10:11 PM

Fiesta st150

Why?

Supposedly a Duratec

Comes with a beefed up gearbox

Someone is already doing it into a J15 (so problems worked out)

Its a Ford so the tuning parts will be easy to get and cheap.

If you will ignore this and go for something more powerful. Then don't go bike engine, Tim Hoverd (google him, as his diary is mega) is doing that and it has involved undoing lots of the design (one of those if you want to end up there, then don't start here things).

Best of luck, I anticipate that we won't be seeing "J15 chassis with all the expensive bits at knock down price" in the "for sale" section (shame as I could be tempted, although I will never sell the one I have).

Matt

iank - 31/5/10 at 10:20 PM

quote:
Originally posted by MakeEverything
Have you thought about a transaxle? Ive got a midi that im currently in the middle of putting a 2.9 cosworth V6 attached to a UN1 to replace the old renault engine that was in it.

There are loads of options, but all depends if you want to have to make or buy an adapter plate.

V8's are even possible and adapters are available off the shelf. IT all depends on what your target power figures look like, and how much space you have.

You'll not fit one in a J15 (at least not without moving the rear wheels back a foot or two, redesigning the chassis and remoulding the bodywork).

Getting a Sigma to anything much above 130bhp costs a lot of cash, if a duratec fits then it's the obvious choice simply as it's a lot cheaper for the same performance.
(K series definitely fits do I don't see why it wouldn't).

RazMan - 31/5/10 at 10:27 PM

Duratec V6 - fairly light and compact. I just saw an ST200 complete with gearbox and ancillaries go for �350

Davg - 31/5/10 at 10:51 PM

Mazda V6 - and I know who's got one complete in the car with all the bits
Not too far away either

Anyways don't matter what you get, by past history it willl be up for sale shortly

[Edited on 31/5/10 by Davg]

beaver34 - 31/5/10 at 11:08 PM

stick with the sigma, can see 140-150bhp on standard inlet with shawspeed cams and big end bolts 160-70 on bodies with those cams

ive had head rods and pistons and will see 200bhp from mine

Paul TigerB6 - 1/6/10 at 12:40 AM

quote:
Originally posted by rost
3SGTE out of a SW20 mr2?
Should giva a lot of hp for not tooo much money (and you'll be running a stock engine, thus reliable)

Or take the same gearbox, flywheel and driveshafts and bolt it to a Toyota 1MZ-FE 3L V6.

55ant - 1/6/10 at 07:05 AM

quote:

Or take the same gearbox, flywheel and driveshafts and bolt it to a Toyota 1MZ-FE 3L V6.

for which TRD made a supercharger, quite hard to find but v.cool.

quinnj3 - 1/6/10 at 07:13 AM

As a few have already mentioned, the h22a, 2.2 vtec from honda, at least 185bhp up to 220bhp (type s prelude import). What I don't think anyone else has mentioned is that afaik the '93-'96 prelude chassis type bb4 (lightweight) was regularly specced with a VSD from factory. Might be worth looking into, and the best bit is they can be got for under �500. The chassis' rot like nothing ordinary leaving behind a very entertaining engine ripe for inserting into a kit car. It also has an excellent gearbox as well.

take a look at this on pistonheads if you don't believe me: clicky

[Edited on 1/6/10 by quinnj3]

ettore bugatti - 2/6/10 at 06:08 PM

VAG 1.8 Turbo?

Chet - 3/6/10 at 12:49 AM

Suggest you follow Jeremy's suggestion to use the Sigma for the following reasons.

1. Balance / light weight
2. Great shifting feel
3. "New US Fiesta" will provide more aftermarket parts.

The ultimate solution however especially for LHD is to have Jeremy modify & extend the chassis for a Hayabusa & chain drive. This is a much more expensive Car due to the custom work and parts.

Chet
Proud owner of a Hayabusa J15!

ceebmoj - 9/6/10 at 08:34 AM

do people know the weights of some of the suggested v6's as I would have thought a ST 200 or 220 would be the natal chouse as its all ford parts asuming it fits and does not weight to much.

have you decided on an engine to use?

RazMan - 9/6/10 at 08:41 AM

My ST200 V6 weighs in at 165Kg

ceebmoj - 9/6/10 at 08:46 AM

thanks for that very quick reply.

another option I don't think I have seen mentioned is the Alfa Romeo V6 engine or the fiat I5 in the coupe

clairetoo - 9/6/10 at 06:40 PM

My Mazda V6 weighs 110kgs (bare) , plus another 3.5kgs for the flywheel

[Edited on 9/6/10 by clairetoo]

kb58 - 9/6/10 at 07:17 PM

What's it weigh ready to run?

Dave Ashurst - 9/6/10 at 07:22 PM

quote:
Originally posted by clairetoo
My Mazda V6 weighs 110kgs (bare) , plus another 3.5kgs for the flywheel

[Edited on 9/6/10 by clairetoo]

It's got a lot in common with me

separated at birth...

D

clairetoo - 9/6/10 at 07:43 PM

quote:
Originally posted by kb58
What's it weigh ready to run?

Well...........the flywheel is just 3 1/2 kgs , about 2 kgs for ally front pulley's , small alternator (dunno - maybe 4 kgs ?) , then two sets of bike throttle bodies - maybe 4 kgs ?
So - about somewhere around 125 ish would be my guess .
The Duratech V6 may make more power , but it wont rev to 8000 , is close to 50mm bigger in all directions , and weighs some 40kgs more !

ceebmoj - 10/6/10 at 09:11 AM

quote:
Originally posted by clairetoo
Well...........the flywheel is just 3 1/2 kgs , about 2 kgs for ally front pulley's , small alternator (dunno - maybe 4 kgs ?) , then two sets of bike throttle bodies - maybe 4 kgs ?
So - about somewhere around 125 ish would be my guess .
The Duratech V6 may make more power , but it wont rev to 8000 , is close to 50mm bigger in all directions , and weighs some 40kgs more !

how much do they cost and what front wheel drive boxes are available?

clairetoo - 10/6/10 at 10:31 AM

quote:
Originally posted by ceebmoj

how much do they cost and what front wheel drive boxes are available?

The last 1.8 (K8) I bought cost me �50

As they are only fitted to front drive cars , Mazda 323 / 626 and Ford Probe are where you will find a gearbox .

ceebmoj - 10/6/10 at 11:02 AM

quote:
Originally posted by clairetoo

The last 1.8 (K8) I bought cost me �50
As they are only fitted to front drive cars , Mazda 323 / 626 and Ford Probe are where you will find a gearbox .

thanks for the info this wiki page might help others

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_K_engine

orton1966 - 15/6/10 at 04:42 AM

quote:
Originally posted by clairetoo
As they are only fitted to front drive cars , Mazda 323 / 626 and Ford Probe are where you will find a gearbox .

Anyone know a good light transaxle option to allow 'true' mid-engine fitment of the Masda V6. That would make it a nice option for a LMP or single seater style car

Livio - 15/6/10 at 06:14 AM

Subaru transmission?

Gakes - 16/6/10 at 12:03 PM

Mk1 Passat or old Audi 500, they should be cheap and come in 5 speed with good ratios

coozer - 16/6/10 at 01:30 PM

How about a Focus RS lump?

2L and 225 bhp standard...

petiegolfer - 30/6/10 at 11:32 AM

What about the 1.6l turbo engine in the current Cooper S / peugeots?

I have no ideas re dimensions but it must be light and resonably small. 170plus bhp and said to be a cracker!

Piers

[Edited on 30/6/10 by petiegolfer]

clairetoo - 23/10/10 at 06:27 PM

Just to add to the thread - I have been chatting to a guy in the states who fancies fitting a Mazda V6 into a J15 , so I had a chat with JP (while my Fury was parked near a J15....) ...................... and we recon the KL will easily fit (and he was very interested in the lack of weight/small size/revvy nature of the engine )

iti_uk - 25/10/10 at 09:44 PM

quote:
Originally posted by clairetoo
All three engines share the same block and heads - they just change the bore , stroke and rod lengths .

The one problem with the KL for FWD (well, Mid-engined, but same config.) applications is that the gearbox which bolts straight to it (in a Probe/MX6/MX3) is notoriously rubbish/weak. Maybe an adapter plate to fit something more sturdy...?

Chris

b14wrc - 7/11/10 at 10:41 AM

Hi,

I am going with the 2litre 5 cylinder 20 valve turbo from the fiat coupe. 220bhp as standard and has an LSD. Not sure on weight. Once I have finished getting it out of the car I will weigh it.

They do sound nice though!!