I've just ordered a clarke 150TE Turbo welder and it suggests that it needs a 20Amp supply to run on full power so I'm putting a 20Amp socket in the garage.

Do I need an RCD for a welder?

Thanks,

Mark

if the supply is unfused then i would say for your own safety it would be advisable

The supply will be housed in a new consumer unit rated at 63 amps and the supply will be from a new 20Amp MCB so it will, in effect be a dedicated supply fused at 20 amps I would have thought.

Mark

i had a similar concern about my new welder. the building electrician in or office assured me that the requirement is for the breaker on the ciruit not the socket. a 13amp socket and fuse is fine aslong as it is on 20 amp+ breaker. RCD may not be very good on a welder as RCD's cut out when they detect an earth. Mig welders work by arcing the supply to earth

quote:

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Originally posted by simonH
i had a similar concern about my new welder. the building electrician in or office assured me that the requirement is for the breaker on the ciruit not the socket. a 13amp socket and fuse is fine aslong as it is on 20 amp+ breaker. RCD may not be very good on a welder as RCD's cut out when they detect an earth. Mig welders work by arcing the supply to earth

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Had a good think and the welder was delivered and had a flick through the manual.

The manual says that is must not be wired into a 13amp plug but must be wired into a 15amp plug. The suppliers (welders warehouse - http://www.thewelderswarehouse.com/... £189 incl vat for a 151te btw) say 20amp supply and machine mart say 30amp supply.

So for now I'm going to stick a 13amp plug on it to practice tomorrow on some 3mm strip as it won't be running at full power but I will be wiring in a new MCB (30 amp) in a new consumer unit and wiring that to an industrial type 32amp socket and putting an appropriate plug on the welder. I'm also making up a 10m extension lead with the same 32amp plugs and sockets so I can use the welder on the drive. All this stuff can be had from TLC direct if you want to go the same route.

On reflection I'm a bit confused about what your electrician is suggesting. The circuit may well be rated at 20amps but surely that's available through all the sockets on that circuit. If you pull 15-20amps through the one socket you'll surely blow the 13amp fuse I would have thought.

Regards,

Mark

[Edited on 18/9/04 by dern]

these things work on the weakest link principle. although a 13amp device is plugged into 13amp socket wich is in turn wired to a 32amp breaker (or 16amp if its a dedicated suply, eg to a garage) the device is accctually conected to the incoming supply by 3 fuses (or MCBs or a combo. a 60A before the meter, 32A in the "consumer unit" and 13A in the plug). the weakest is rated to 13 amp so that one will blow if the device fails. the sum of all the items on the curcuit could be more than 13A, eg 2 electric fires at 3kW each, and so the curcuit can usually take up to 32A.

in the case of settin up a dedicated supply for a welder, i would sugest a 32A breaker or RCD in the consumer unit with a dedicated cable to a 32A switched BS4343 (thats the big blue red or yellow plugs (blue=240V, red=415V and yellow=110V (ignoring white, grey, purple and green, cause youll prolly never use them))) preferably with an interlock if you have anyone else with you when you are working, especially childern (of all ages) as this means they cant pull the plug out when its turned on (big flash and bang if you are unlucky with that big an inductive load)

go to www.rs.com and search for bs4343

rs product no 352-2682
expensive but could save your life.
people always sugest putting in more capacity than needed, and for good reson. my pillar drill runs quite happily drawing about 5A max but the surge when you turn it on is about 10A, this is the same for a lot of things. i was talking to a friend working on a piece of machenery recently which ran at 100A per phase on a 3 phase suppply but on startup the RFI generated caused all the on board computers to crash and stop the auto load balance system. this was due to one phase drawing 600A, one drawing 800A and one drawing 1200A. so even if you can run a welder at 15A continuously, it could draw 30A for a fraction of a second on start up. MCBs tend to trip on this where as a fusewire has a thermal low pass efect causing the spike, so long as it is short enough, to pass. i know lots of people who have stuff on MEM EXEL swichfuses cause they dont trip when you turn them on.

just my 2p

[Edited on 18/9/04 by binraker]

Thanks Binraker. I have gone for the 32amp sockets and so on but didn't think about the interlock I must admit.

Mark

as welders are inductive, i sugest you put a little notice next to the switch to warn people not to pull out the plug when you are wusing it. the misses getting anoyed with you for not coming in for dinner might get a fright when she pulls the plug on you.
just a thought

[Edited on 18/9/04 by binraker]

so does the welder come with a 13amp plug?

welder don't normally come with a plug on.
i've got a clark 160t and i've used it on full power on a long extention lead on a 13amp plug and it has performed faultlessly. maybe not the correct/safest, but i haven't had any probs and my chassis is now finished!

Ned.

With any largish welder particulary MIGs, I would use 16amp sockets and extentions. I made a 15 metre extersion and wired the socket up to but not inot the consumer unit for about £20. Thats a wall female, a trailing female and a trailing male with 16 meters of cabling.
It means that I dont have to worry about fuses, Its all done on the trips.
But then I do work in theatre so have the backwards theosphy (my spelling is terrible today) that fuses ad trips should all be accessible and kept to as few as possible (as long you have have suffient present).
To be honest my welder uses 15 amps so wouldnt wanna push it on 13, and domestically (rather than at work) a 16 amp socket is of more use then a 15 amp.

Like Ned, I run my 151TE off a standard 13A plug on a long extension (which I keep fully unravelled). I regularly go up to full power and have had no problems. Done approx 75% of chassis so far...

[Edited on 12/4/05 by AdamR]

I also have a 151TE. I regularly run it on a 13 amp plug up to power setting 5 .....

i haven't got the guts to run it on 6 as the socket also provides my light. I know of another builder who has run a 151 at full power on a 13 amp socket.

Mine from machine mart came with a 13 amp plug already fitted.

i was going to order a clarke 151teturbo until it said it needs a 30 amp supply (machine mart) but if you good peaple have had no probs then thats the welder for me thanks again

I used to have a Clarke 150 TE and it ran on full power until it's thermal trip cut in on std power socket no problem.

I now have a 210 amp industrial mig and this runs on exactly the same, though at full blast it blows 13 amp fuses. I won't say how I get round this on here (not the done thing put it that way!), but the spur that feeds my garage has a 50amp MCB on it (10mm cable) and the consumer unit that feeds it has an RCD in it which I would not run without, it could save your life, regardless of fusing!

13A plug - just because people do it doesn't mean that it's right or indeed safe.

I put in a seperate MCB and used the 32Amp big blue (240v) sockets and plugs and have had no problems. It didn't cost much, was easy to do and works correctly.

Regards,

Mark

Perhaps I should add, the ring that feeds my garage has a 32amp mcb, the spur has a 13amp fuse, the socket in the wall has a 13amp rcd .....

so i'm pretty well protected

quote:

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Originally posted by dern
13A plug - just because people do it doesn't mean that it's right or indeed safe.

I put in a seperate MCB and used the 32Amp big blue (240v) sockets and plugs and have had no problems. It didn't cost much, was easy to do and works correctly.

Regards,

Mark

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quote:

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Originally posted by NS DevThis is all fine in your workshop but not that many people have the big blue sockets. So when I go off welding for other people (not so much recently but used to do a fair bit) it can be an issue.

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I remember one night out in the garage welding away quite happily when I shorted my gas shield, which had become live, to my chassis. The welder groaned and my fusebox tripped taking the lights with it. I went from bright lights to pitch black in a split second. Unfortunately I was at the far end of my garage with tools all over the floor between me and the fusebox...

Cheers,
Craig.

which is why legally your lights should be on a difference circuit to your power ......

of course what you're supposed to do and what is in my garage are quite different although normally i leave the garage door open when i'm working in there.

I went a bit silly when I rewired my place. Each room in the house (incl. garage) has two seperate circuits for lights (ie one for wall lights, one for ceilings) and at least two circuits for sockets!!
If something goes a bit wrong (for example, when a family of slugs kept fusing half my kitching) I still have some of the sockets working!! If i trip the one of the lights in my garage (usually by stabbing a fitting with a sharp stick or similar!) I can still watch Emmerdale(or similar)
But thats just me. I have my welders flat out for far too long plugged into the 13amp socket and I'm not dead yet........

Mike,
My consumer unit in the garage does have separate circuits for the lights and sockets but unfortunately it is all driven from a spur on my house ring main and it was this which tripped. I have a 32A MCB for the sockets and a 16A MCB for the lights but the MCB in the house tripped before the one in the garage on this occasion. The MCB's are all standard size so I swapped them around so that hopefully next time the garage one will trip first...

Cheers,
Craig.

Mine is the same. Spur to the garage with a fused connection unit feeding the lights in the garage from that.

mines similar....

13amp fused feed into the garage (on cable designed to take 18 amps)

rcd socket on the wall which feeds a four way, four ways feeds an rcd that feeds power to the back of the garage and to the welder

after the socket is a fuse and then the lights.....

yeah, i know how bad it is .... its what the house was like when i bought it.

................and didn't you say it was wilCON construction who built it!

GIT GIT GIT - you had to mention that!

i didn't know the builders where WILCON before i bought the house.

mumble grumble, where is my hacksaw, i'll soon lighten your steering column!!!! :p

..................but which one..............???

all of them.....
sierra,
race car,
toy car,
and any more i can find lying around !!!!!!!!