James
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| posted on 28/6/05 at 09:21 AM |
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Sacrificing our civil liberties
Well today, a government that's already done so much to take away our hard won rights to freedom and democracy (removing right to trial by jury,
detention without charge etc. etc.) will be debating the "Flagship" £18billion (figures by highly respected London School of Economics)
I.D. card bill for it's second reading.
The Liberal Democrats have announced their opposition as have the Conservatives.
A few interesting points:
http://www.no2id.net/IDSchemes/faq.php
Cheers,
James
[Edited on 28/6/05 by James]
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"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses, behind the lines, in the gym and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights."
- Muhammad Ali
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James
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| posted on 28/6/05 at 09:25 AM |
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Just read this from The Independent...
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=650197
You may not want to read it all but atleast scroll to the bottom and look at the list of failed/over budget government IT projects.
Check out this little doozey:
"Benefits Payment Card. Designed to link all 19,000 UK post offices and the DSS benefits system. With costs at £1bn, the project was suspended
in 1999. Planning/co-ordination and supplier problems"
And better still:
"* NHS national programme for (NpfIT) System to link hospitals and GPs' surgeries. Likely to cost £30bn, five times the original price.
Training staff accounts for almost all overspend."
What would you say if your builder gave you a bill five times the original quote?!
Cheers,
James
EDIT: Add actual link in! 
[Edited on 28/6/05 by James]
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"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses, behind the lines, in the gym and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights."
- Muhammad Ali
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spaximus
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| posted on 28/6/05 at 09:54 AM |
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You have hit the nail on the head James. We are allowing ourselves to be herded along towards no freedom. The people who are for this will say
"ifyou have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear" but do you want all your details availble to others. When a 14 year old boy from
London can hack into the USA FBI, Security services, how long do you think it will take someone to hack into our systems. The calim that it is to stop
benefit fraud is not going to happen, the people who commit fraud will find a way round it quicker than the system will be able to react.
I know many who think it is a good idea up to the point where the cost comes into it. They are talking of £35-90 but the experts who know the
goverment understate the true costs of any project you could care to mention, are talking £200 minimum. There is enough information about everyone of
us now but they want more for no good reason.
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James
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| posted on 28/6/05 at 10:18 AM |
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I've been thinking about the hacking side of it myself recently.
Can you imagine the possibilities of what an enterprising hacker could do with that data when it comes to selling it so marketing companies etc.
etc.
The UK ID database- the mecca of hackers world wide!
Having said that- I read in The Independent recently that the govenment is considering selling the data to marketing companies anyway (as councils can
currently do with the electoral role!). Just imagine the junk mail targeting abilities of a company with that sort of info!
By selling it they can of course tell us it won't cost as much as we suspect because the cost will be off-set by selling!
As for benefit fraud: false identity is a tiny, tiny fraction of the cost of benefit fraud. Most fraud is commited by underquoting earnings etc. so
that people already entitled just get more money.
Benefit fraud currently costs us £2 Billion. False identity is just £50million of that. Rather less than the £18Billion estimated cost of the I.D.
card scheme!
Cheers,
James
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"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses, behind the lines, in the gym and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights."
- Muhammad Ali
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 28/6/05 at 10:27 AM |
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This government is made up of control freaks - every bit of legislation seems to impose more and more rules - a lot of which seem to involve US
spending money so that THEY can run our lives.
DJ
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Alez
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| posted on 28/6/05 at 10:38 AM |
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I'd say that's the very definition of "government", David 
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britishtrident
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| posted on 28/6/05 at 10:39 AM |
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A storm is brewing, the Blairite faction within the cabinet underestmated just how strong the feeling is on this issue, in fact it is a tax on
breathing ---- it is quite noticable that Gordon Brown is about the only cabinet minister that hasn't spoken on iD cards. The smart money is it
is the single issue that will bring Blair down.
It forms a pattern when viewed together with the forced deportation of genuine Zimbabwian refugees back to the horror of the Mugabe campaign of
terror. Strange in view of the fact we give permanent sancturary to gangs of afgan terrorists, west african fraudsters and east european mobsters.
I sometimes think that forces within the goverment and civil service trying to bring it down by sabotage from within. How else can such looney
policies be explained.
[Edited on 28/6/05 by britishtrident]
[Edited on 28/6/05 by britishtrident]
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ned
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| posted on 28/6/05 at 10:52 AM |
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Sorry David, but where you wrote 'us' in capitals I initially mis read it as U.S. !
oh dear.
Ned.
beware, I've got yellow skin
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James
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| posted on 28/6/05 at 11:24 AM |
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Seeing as there's a good chance either IBM, EDS or another big American corporation will get the project, presumably most of the £18Billion
*will* be going to the US!
Ah well, they need a bit more money out there. I mean, come on, they've got a "War on Terror" to fund!
Cheers,
James
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"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses, behind the lines, in the gym and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights."
- Muhammad Ali
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pbura
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| posted on 28/6/05 at 12:05 PM |
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Was sort of surprised to see this thread take an anti-Yank slant, because I perceived the issue as coming from the EU. National IDs, etc., are
failing here (for now). We've all got the same basic problem
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/06/09.htm
Pete
Pete
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 28/6/05 at 12:17 PM |
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I didn't notice any anti-yank sentiment!
EDS were mentioned as they have a superb UK track record for totally cocking-up government projects while exceeding their budgets by 500%.
I'd guess that all governments are the same - tax as much as they can, control as much as they can.
David
[Edited on 28/6/05 by David Jenkins]
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ned
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| posted on 28/6/05 at 12:20 PM |
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Pete,
don't get me wrong, i didn't mean that in the small minded fashion that it came across, moreso just a funny coincidence 
bottom line imho is whatever is or isn't implemented the crooks will always find a way around it somehow, regardless. I believe it may catch
some/slow down the fraud/identity theft rate initially while they find ways to bypass or corrupt the system, but in the long run I fail to see how it
can be anything other than a waste of public money. best case scenario a high percentage of people have a passport or driving license, you already
have to pay for both, so why not make one of them ie passport compulsory and add biometrics to it?
you can already buy a fake passport i hear you say? what makes anyone think that it'll be any different with id cards a year after they've
been implemented at a cost of £how much/unknown
Ned.
beware, I've got yellow skin
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pbura
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| posted on 28/6/05 at 12:40 PM |
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No offense taken, gents.  People here (edit: in the US) are suspicious of Mr. Bush and the multi-nationals. My own impression of Bush is that
he's a sincere fellow, but even I get some bad vibes when I read about Halliburton supplying soup to nuts to the military. Weren't they
an oil service company??
In any event, the foxes are in charge of the henhouse It's always been that way, but the foxes seem particularly well-fed these days.
 
[Edited on 28/6/05 by pbura]
Pete
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theconrodkid
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| posted on 28/6/05 at 12:54 PM |
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seems like there is sooooooooo much oposition to these cards that they will forget the idea.
it reminds me of comunist russia etc where you were watched all the time,anything you said could be turned against you and the ruling classes will be
the only ones in cars,the rest will work the feilds or assemble tractors in blue boiler suits and live in grey concrete blocks where the doors are
locked at 8pm
roll on the revolution
who cares who wins
pass the pork pies
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Fozzie
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| posted on 28/6/05 at 01:06 PM |
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John, it doesnt REMIND me of communist Russia...this IS Communism here and now...but the electorate obviously didn't realise it when they voted
Blair back in..
The EU....is just another 'communist Russia' just geographicaly moved.......As far as I can see, there is no democracy there, just
'do what you are told'.....and don't ask questions!
IMHO......of course!......
Fozzie
'Racing is Life!...anything before or after is just waiting'....Steve McQueen
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timf
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| posted on 28/6/05 at 01:12 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Fozzie
John, it doesnt REMIND me of communist Russia...this IS Communism here and now...but the electorate obviously didn't realise it when they voted
Blair back in..
The EU....is just another 'communist Russia' just geographicaly moved.......As far as I can see, there is no democracy there, just
'do what you are told'.....and don't ask questions!
IMHO......of course!......
Fozzie
would citizen fozzie please report to the nearest police station for attitude re-adjustment please.
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Fozzie
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| posted on 28/6/05 at 01:16 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by timf
would citizen fozzie please report to the nearest police station for attitude re-adjustment please.
Absolutely Not.......LOL
Fozzie
[Edited on 28/6/05 by Fozzie]
'Racing is Life!...anything before or after is just waiting'....Steve McQueen
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theconrodkid
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| posted on 28/6/05 at 01:58 PM |
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beware the knock on the door,WE KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE COMRADE
who cares who wins
pass the pork pies
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marcyboy
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| posted on 28/6/05 at 02:39 PM |
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but then labour have always been the red party
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britishtrident
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| posted on 28/6/05 at 03:18 PM |
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Even if UK central goverment dosen't introduce idenity cards the UK local authorities are going to. I am (or was I am probably black listed now)
on a citizens panel and was given given a questionaire on the subject it began that my local council were going to introduce citizen cards for access
to local services -- note "are" not "considering" or "evaluating" but ARE. At no point did the questionaire ask
if I had any objections to this.
The questionaire then went on to ask details of what credit or idenity cards already have and use -- needless to say I considered this a gross
intrusion of privacy and the security of my personal details so I told them where to get off.
However I have no objections to the idea of a driving licence as means of idenity proof even for people who don't drive -- ie a licence valid
for a push bike only.
[Edited on 28/6/05 by britishtrident]
[Edited on 28/6/05 by britishtrident]
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Spyderman
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| posted on 28/6/05 at 05:30 PM |
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The compulsion of an ID card WILL increase fraud and identity theft!
Let's just assume we have an ID card for now!
What is it for?
As proof of who we are obviously!
How does it prove who we are?
By containing all relevant information to prove who we are (address, name, age, N.I. number, NHS number, etc).
How is the information going to be collected or checked?
By a swipe system similar to credit cards presumably.
How are credit card details stolen?
Usually by some corrupt sales assistant running them across a card reader or by an unknown piggyback card reader as is currently going on at cash
point machines, not to mention theft or loss of card.
ID theft and credit card fraud are the fastest growing crime of the moment. It doesn't take a genious to realise that the more information any
one system contains, the greater the danger of loss or corruption that system faces.
The more information someone has about you the easier it is to clone your ID for whatever reason (crime or terrorism).
And this is going to protect us?
Terry
Spyderman
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JamieG
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| posted on 28/6/05 at 06:51 PM |
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I've just been reading through the http://www.No2ID.net site and saw this;
quote:
Clause 2 (6) requires that every individual must be given a unique number, to be known as the National Identity Registration Number (NIRN). This
number will become the “key” for government and private sector organisations to access information on the register and to share that information.
Seems we will be known by number instead of by name like the concentration camps of the 2nd W W. Forget the cost in monetary value for a second, its
the cost to personal freedom to live in this country which concerns/angers me..Its as disturbing as it is unbelievable. There should be riots in
the streets IMHO.
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Fozzie
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| posted on 28/6/05 at 07:18 PM |
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I totally agree Terry and Jamie!
If we, a cross section of the populous, can see ahead to the dangers of this 'indexing' of the individual, why can't those people in
parliament who are representing 'us' see it too, how on earth has this situation ever been allowed to get this far?
Blair says this ID thing isn't 'if', but, when!
Which I take to mean, that if we do kick up, he will not take any notice, he is going to do it!
(only my personal view of course)
Fozzie
'Racing is Life!...anything before or after is just waiting'....Steve McQueen
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theconrodkid
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| posted on 28/6/05 at 07:39 PM |
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on the news today some nob from ministry of dis-information said "the americans want /demand these cards/passports" an american said that
wasnt true,i have no plans to travel to the USA again,why should i need one?
seings as most peeps in this country are in a similar situation whats the point?
it was noted that some supermarkets that use "chips" on sales tags are tracking said tags to see where customers live/go.
so they in theory could watch your every move
who cares who wins
pass the pork pies
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JamieG
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| posted on 28/6/05 at 09:36 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by theconrodkid
on the news today some nob from ministry of dis-information said "the americans want /demand these cards/passports" an american said that
wasnt true,i have no plans to travel to the USA again,why should i need one?
seings as most peeps in this country are in a similar situation whats the point?
it was noted that some supermarkets that use "chips" on sales tags are tracking said tags to see where customers live/go.
so they in theory could watch your every move
A few points:
1)Yeah thats sort of like the satellite tracking boxes in every car the government wanted a few weeks ago. Oh yes i really want to pay £3.40 per mile,
what a great idea-i'd love tony and his pals to know where i am 24x7.People had serious concerns over that and i hope they do over this as well.
2) How can they "make" everybody pay ~£300 for this!? - and; isn't that a Dictatorship
3) This rubbish being largely Blunketts idea, did anyone see him get back into the cabinet? i blinked and missed it - what a joke.
4) I agree with Fozzie and Terry
[Edited on 28/6/05 by JamieG]
Just found this; I think some of the policies are real!!
http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/toys/blunkett/
[Edited on 28/6/05 by JamieG]
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