Peteff
|
| posted on 12/12/13 at 10:39 AM |
|
|
They should ban holiday firms from profiteering, not lay the blame on schools. Surely it must breach some monopoly law or something.
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
|
|
|
|
|
sdh2903
|
| posted on 12/12/13 at 10:47 AM |
|
|
Pete see my post on the first page, if it didn't happen then several holiday companies would disappear increasing prices massively. Holiday
companies have to make enough money off the small peak pockets of business to survive the year.
|
|
|
Theshed
|
| posted on 12/12/13 at 11:03 AM |
|
|
Hereby hangs a tale....
When my daughter was 11 she had completed her SATs and passed her 11 plus to get into the last remaining grammar school we agreed to go on a ski-ing
holiday at easter. I did not check the term dates as we were going with my brother in law who was a teacher. It turned out that there was no overlap
whatsoever with the term dates in Cumbria and Essex...oops. Never mind I said we can just ask permission.
I was alive to the fact that my daughters school rarely gave permission. I sat down and wrote a long letter pointing out the fact that my daughter had
100% attendance for 7 years save for one occasion where we insisted that she go to school with a cold and the school sent her home! I told the school
about the miss-aligned term dates and explained that spending some time with her cousins was a good thing......the school said No.
I wrote again this time setting out all of the relevant legislation - this letter was more towards the polite but firm side. I asked the school to
reconsider and saying that even if they did not we were going anyway.....They said No.
We went on holiday - no saving on cost I can assure you.
On our return same 6 weeks later my partner and I were sent a "joint" penalty notice asking us to pay £60 and warning that if we did not
we would face prosecution.....
I wrote an even longer and even less polite letter to the Local Authority pointing out that not getting permission from the school did not mean that i
had committed a criminal offence. I set out all of the legislation and included a couple of decided cases. I told them to stick their (defective)
penalty notice where the sun does not ordinarily shine...
Some weeks later I got a threat of action by the Council for not paying "an invoice" - another long letter. I pointed out that the penalty
notice does not impose a fine it simply offers an opportunity to avoid prosecution. The response was to ask whether I wanted to be
prosecuted...Another long letter. I again pointed out that I had not committed any crime.
So they decided to prosecute me and my partner. Let it be said she was not a happy bunny.
We attended our local magistrates court to enter our pleas. There was a special education list. 14 names on it but only us and one nice Romany woman -
who had brought her kids on a school day showed up.
The Local Authority attendance officer walked past me scowling - she obviously did not like my letters. It then transpired that they had asked one of
the legal team to come along to present the case. He was a decent sort. He asked if we were intending to plead not guilty and I assured him that was
the case. My partner had dressed up for the occasion and I were a suit. The expression on the magistrates faces was hilarious.
I am a lawyer although it is many years since I have done criminal law. I instinctively sat in the barrister's row and my partner sat beside me.
The Clerk said that we should stand in the dock - the magistrates nearly had a fit ....not necessary apparently.
The matter was set down for a 2 day trial......a week later the case was dropped as not being in the public interest. So we won????? Did we heck. My
partner has never forgiven me and we have never done it again. It took me many many hours to prepare for the fight.
The new changes to the law are to the statutory instruments giving head teachers discretion to permit term time holidays. The discretion was limited
to "special circumstances" it is now "exceptional circumstances". However that has no direct bearing on whether you commit a
crime if you take a child out of school without permission. There are 2 criminal offences. A parent or guardian commits the lesser offence by
"failing to ensure that the child attends school regularly". The meaning of regularly in that sentence was the subject of a High Court
decision and what it does not mean is - every time the school is open. It is a matter of common sense comparing the absences to the attendances. In
other words - a once in a blue moon failure to attend will not be a failure to attend regularly - if you did it every year - you take your chances.
What is really sad is that the Department of Education have so little faith in their head teachers that they are not prepared to give any real
discretion at all. Whats wrong with a bit of common sense?
|
|
|
dhutch
|
| posted on 12/12/13 at 11:36 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by r1_peteHow about, instead of fines, parents meet the cost of additional tuition out of school hours so the kid
catches up......
I dont know what the fines are, but additional tution aint cheap if its any good! Fines appear to be £60, your not going to
get much tution time for that money. When I was at uni I used to pay about £19/hour to a postgrad for a few hours a week support.
quote:
Originally posted by mookaloid
If as a society we are trying to instill a sense of responsibility into our kids for future working life then we should discourage rule breaking,
pulling sickies and the like.
Doing this when they are at school just sets them a bad example for later in life. It's harsh but IMHO the fines are not only appropriate but if
they don't make the absence prohibitive then they aren't large enough either.
I agree with the above a lot.
I dont have kids yet, but we I dont recall ever being taken out of school for a holiday. I think a couple of times in primary I left at lunchtime on a
friday to make the ferry times but that as about. We just used to go once a year to france in the car, plus a weeks camping in Devon/Somerset. Sorted.
Perkins prima engined Montego, it used to go everywhere with us, rear facing seats if a freind came along, happy days!
Daniel
|
|
|
britishtrident
|
| posted on 12/12/13 at 12:02 PM |
|
|
Sleaze bag parents would just leave kids with a large pack of Cheezy Whats Its, a Mother Pride loaf, 14 tins of cat food and if they are
really lucky a tin opener
Schools can no longer afford to care about education ticking boxes is all that matters. Sick Sad World.
[Edited on 12/12/13 by britishtrident]
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
|
|
|
Jon Ison
|
| posted on 12/12/13 at 12:22 PM |
|
|
Its the two faced ness that boils my pee, she's going to miss 4 days immediately after Christmas, she missed 3 days earlier this year due to
strikes, she as up to date 100% attendance teachers strikes aside, there are scallys in the village that don't even know where the school is,
guess my LEA tax invoice will pay for their day trips out to win the naughty boys and girls round ?
Its 4 days, we could lie, prefer not to.
|
|
|
robinj66
|
| posted on 12/12/13 at 03:05 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Theshed
What is really sad is that the Department of Education have so little faith in their head teachers that they are not prepared to give any real
discretion at all. Whats wrong with a bit of common sense?
Ain't that the truth!
The problem is that thus is indicative of 21st Century England. No one is left to use their common sense and experience to achieve a goal - it must
be done to a set of standard rules (mostly "one size fits all" which seem to dumb down our society so that we all operate at the level of
the lowest common denominator.
|
|
|
indykid
|
| posted on 12/12/13 at 04:21 PM |
|
|
Swmbo's a teacher. She's expected to be at school every day it's open. No special dispensation is offered because she fancies a
holiday on the cheap. I'm not a teacher, but I'm tied to school holidays because of it. I can't take her out of school because I
can't afford a summer holiday. We haven't had one for 3 or 4 years now, but that's life. I don't really see why if you have
kids, you shouldn't be tied to school holidays because of it. School holidays surely aren't a surprise to any parent?
Enforcing things like this is more a reflection of modern standards of parenting imho, where parents are more inclined to put their own motives ahead
of the correct decisions for their child. I'm not saying anyone above is black and white wrong to have taken their children out of school, but
putting money saving above a child's education sets a bad example, again imho. It's surely a contributing factor to the lack of respect
for teachers and the establishment as a whole.
I think the thing that really winds me up is that so many people believe they're entitled to an annual family holiday abroad, come what may. If
we decided to have a brace of children, should swmbo be allowed to take a week out of school so we could afford a holiday?
3 days of strike action is apparently an issue to parents, but all the kids missed 3 days, so nobody dropped behind or missed anything important. Odd
kids taking a week out causes havoc for the teacher, because it's them that have to try to level the class again on their return.
In balance to all the above, I agree, there should be discretion to allow time out of school, but ONLY if it doesn't disrupt the rest of the
class, or the teacher. It should be the parents' responsibility to ensure the child is back up to speed before their return. The issue is that
if you afford outstanding students the leeway, the less able will feel entitled to it and kick up a stink when they're refused.
|
|
|
sdh2903
|
| posted on 12/12/13 at 04:40 PM |
|
|
Teachers who moan about being tied to school holidays ha don't get me started, what other jobs get as many paid holidays and don't have to
worry about child care to boot. There are some very saintly black and white views on here!!
Has anyone been into a school to see what they do in the last days of term before summer precisely diddly squat that's what!! When we have took
them out early we have approached both head teachers at both primary and secondary schools to check the kids are up to date and there will be no
impact. Each occasion they have given their blessing. I would never pull kids out mid term or if it had any impact at all. For the saintly preachers
on here this is called COMMON SENSE, sadly some folks and lots of schools don't seem to be in possession of much
[Edited on 12/12/13 by sdh2903]
|
|
|
Jon Ison
|
| posted on 12/12/13 at 05:53 PM |
|
|
"3 days of strike action is apparently an issue to parents, but all the kids missed 3 days, so nobody dropped behind or missed anything
important. Odd kids taking a week out causes havoc for the teacher, because it's them that have to try to level the class again on their
return."
Teachers taking strike action for 3 days causes havoc for parents but hey ho that's ok. A class of 20 pupils, level? When does this happen then,
the learning abilities across 20 individual pupils makes that impossible?
Come on, there are kids that never make a full week, that is initially what these fines where bought into deal with, my own experience schools
LEA's just pander to his type of parent and do bugger all about it, easy target play by the rules parent on the other hand is treated as a cash
cow, it's going to snow sometime in January, better send the kids home just in case.
|
|
|
morcus
|
| posted on 12/12/13 at 09:39 PM |
|
|
Just a side note, I remember quite clearly my year 10 physics teacher pointing out on a Tuesday afternoon in may 03 that it was only the second time
all 29 were there that year, and that was top set in a school pretty good for attendance, and also the only year I had time out of school for a
holiday as all my siblings were at different schools with different time off. But I was the only person in that class who had time off for a
holiday.
If its about teaching responsibility its completely the wrong way around. All your do is teach them its better to lie, unless you've got money,
then you can do what you like
In a White Room, With Black Curtains, By the Station.
|
|
|
MikeRJ
|
| posted on 14/12/13 at 06:47 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by mookaloid
If as a society we are trying to instill a sense of responsibility into our kids for future working life then we should discourage rule breaking,
pulling sickies and the like.
Doing this when they are at school just sets them a bad example for later in life. It's harsh but IMHO the fines are not only appropriate but if
they don't make the absence prohibitive then they aren't large enough either.
Fully agree with this. We have been invited to a family wedding in Cypress, with free use of a hotel for an entire week but it's during term
time so we can't go. It would no doubt have been very enjoyable, but my daughters education is vastly more important than a week of lounging
around in the sun. We usually take turns looking after her during the holidays to maximise our available vacation time.
Bringing up children requires commitment and responsibility. If people have neither of these attributes then they shouldn't be breeding IMO.
quote:
Originally posted by morcus
If its about teaching responsibility its completely the wrong way around. All your do is teach them its better to lie, unless you've got money,
then you can do what you like
It's not about teaching responsibility to kids, it's about trying to make bad parents responsible. Or is that what you meant?
[Edited on 14/12/13 by MikeRJ]
|
|
|
steve m
|
| posted on 14/12/13 at 08:06 PM |
|
|
i do believe it depends a lot on how old the child is, as i certainly would not take my 13 yr old grandson out of school
But when we did he must of been about 9, and the most interesting thing he missed in one week, was a visit to a farm
Now we are all different, but i will put my life and house on the fact, he will NEVER be a Farmer!!
Steve
Thats was probably spelt wrong, or had some grammer, that the "grammer police have to have a moan at
|
|
|
dhutch
|
| posted on 18/12/13 at 08:35 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by steve m
.... the most interesting thing he missed in one week, was a visit to a farm
Now we are all different, but i will put my life and house on the fact, he will NEVER be a Farmer!!
But that does not mean a trip to a farm isnt a valuable thing for him.
- Unless he will never eat anything made on a farm.
- Never go walking in the country side and walk through a far.
- Have no interest at all in any animals/vegitation ever in his life.
You might have noticed you have slightly hit a nerve, but having a class of thirty 8 years olds where only 4 of them can correctly name the vegitable
that chips come from is a hell of an eye opener.
Daniel
|
|
|
Jon Ison
|
| posted on 18/12/13 at 09:12 AM |
|
|
OK, didn't initially want to expand but will, maybe my original post did not give the full picture, no to be fair it didn't give the full
picture at all.
What if one of the parents had been recently diagnosed with a tumour (been in remission for years) and sadly its highly likely this could be the last
ever family holiday together to a place this person as always wanted to visit, fingers crossed it wont be but very probable will be, also time is of
the essence regarding fit to travel, what do you think of the LEA's stance now (and they are in receipt of the facts) also considering the
travel was booked to reduce as much as possible time out of school, ie over Christmas ?
|
|
|
owelly
|
| posted on 18/12/13 at 09:53 AM |
|
|
Given those circumstances, I'd say they were exceptional and as such, the holiday happens with or without the approval of the authority or head
teacher.
Swmbo is a school teacher and as she often points out to parents who complain about not being able to take kids out of school, if your child can
afford to miss time at school, then fine. If that child is one of those struggling to complete work then perhaps they need as much time as possible in
front of a teacher! Strangely enough, it's usually the parents of the kids who are not the brightest that are the ones complaining, but that may
just be an observation based on what she sees.
Here's another thing....
What about school trips? What's the difference between a skiing trip in term time with a school party and a skiing trip with the family?!
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
|
|
|
dhutch
|
| posted on 18/12/13 at 07:50 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jon IsonWhat if one of the parents had been recently diagnosed with a tumour (been in remission for years) and
sadly its highly likely this could be the last ever family holiday together to a place this person as always wanted to visit..
I too would say
that a case of exceptional circumstance. I would like to see the school support it and wave the fine, but would equally expect it to go ahead either
way.
quote:
Originally posted by owellyWhat about school trips? What's the difference between a skiing trip in term time with a school party
and a skiing trip with the family?!
One sees a group of school children from the same school or class, going on a trip somewhere, rarely more the once in a year, with the lessons and
teacher time planed around it accordingly. The other does not.
Sorry, but I miss your point on that owelly?
Daniel
|
|
|
sdh2903
|
| posted on 18/12/13 at 09:34 PM |
|
|
Well the school's done a fine job of peeing me right off. 48 hrs notice they are breaking up for Xmas a day early. We work around each
other's shift patterns and because of this I'm gonna be the best part of 100 quid out of pocket for 3 kids child care for the day just
before Christmas. It's a joke. We do the same and we get in trouble.
|
|
|
owelly
|
| posted on 19/12/13 at 12:20 AM |
|
|
quote:
quote:Originally posted by owellyWhat about school trips? What's the difference between a skiing trip in term time with a school party and a
skiing trip with the family?!One sees a group of school children from the same school or class, going on a trip somewhere, rarely more the once in a
year, with the lessons and teacher time planed around it accordingly. The other does not. Sorry, but I miss your point on that owelly?
At around £400 per pupil, the schools around here never take a single class away and to make up the places, they offer the places to other kids. This
leaves loads of kids of different ages and abilities being taught in mismatched classes using whatever staff are left in school. So are the kids left
in school getting a better education than those on the trip? What about if parents decided to take their kids out of school for a holiday when their
classmates were on a school trip?
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
|
|
|
craig1410
|
| posted on 19/12/13 at 02:07 AM |
|
|
Lots of interesting views so far in this thread.
In my humble opinion, as a father of three kids (19, 17, 15) who are doing just fine(thankfully), my wife and I will decide when and if they attend
school or not, nobody else. In fact, my 15 year old will be skipping school on Friday as it is a waste of his time to attend on the last day of term
when nothing is being taught. I am more than happy to tell the school whatever story will cause the least paperwork for them as they have more than
enough of that already. I always phone in before 10am (as requested by the school) to inform them of any absence, again to save any extra effort or
paperwork from the school staff.
Also, while on the subject, I think I saw someone commenting on how teachers get more paid holidays than anyone and no worries with childcare or
something along those lines. Whoever it was clearly doesn't have a clue what they are talking about. My wife is a primary teacher and let me
tell you, teaching is super-tough, especially if you are any good at it. My wife is a fantastic teacher (not just my opinion) and a really strong
person and she is totally exhausted towards the end of each and every term. You should try just sitting in a P1 class environment for an hour to get
an idea of what it is like. Then there is the endless paperwork, lack of resources, management and local authority meddling, un-fireable sub-standard
teachers (union backed of course...), and often demanding parents who want the teacher to devote their entire day to their child individually.
Multiply that by 28 or so and you might be close to understanding.
Here is a fascinating insight into Steve Jobs's views on the value of teachers and education (you might be surprised even if you are not a Jobs
fan):
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9221185/Video_Steve_Jobs_one_on_one_the_95_interview?taxonomyId=163&pageNumber=4
C.
|
|
|
sdh2903
|
| posted on 19/12/13 at 06:06 AM |
|
|
Craig the comment about holidays was by myself, and totally stand by it, if you re read it, I never said anything about it not being a tough job and
was merely stating a fact. I completely agree that it must be an exhausting task but in what other professions can you get 4 - 5 weeks off in prime
summer season to spend with your own kids? I can't, as it's our busy time of year I struggle to book a day off let alone a week.
This is clearly quite an emotive subject and has been some interesting viewpoints
|
|
|
peter030371
|
| posted on 19/12/13 at 08:54 AM |
|
|
It amazes me how many people are prepared to 'teach' their own children that its OK to 'skip' school if it 'saves a few
quid' or you can 'afford the fine'. My sister and her partner do it, my business partner does it, I have never done it and I have
twice as many children as them to pay for (and that was my choice and is my responsibility).
They go abroad every year, we go to the New Forest camping in non-term time. Is their holiday time 'better' or 'more
educational' than ours? Are my children 'poorly educated' because they have never jumped in a private pool next to the villla or
seen the French Alps?
The most important lessons during 'growing up' are not at school. Manners, respect for others, good morals and an understanding of the
responsibilities of living in our society are taught by the parents. If you think its fine to skip school, regardless of what the law says, then what
moral standards are you teaching your children?
Family illness is 'exceptional circumstances' and the moral thing to do is to protect and expand your childrens future memories before its
too late.
|
|
|
scudderfish
|
| posted on 19/12/13 at 09:59 AM |
|
|
Family illness is exceptional, a bargain ski holiday isn't.
|
|
|
dhutch
|
| posted on 19/12/13 at 02:39 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by sdh2903What other professions can you get 4 - 5 weeks off in prime summer season to spend with your own kids?
I dont have kids, but I working for an engineering company I get a 3 week summer shutdown in August, when the line stops for its annual major
maintance and update/expension program and all the deisgn offices and desk staff have the same holidays.
So there are others!
Daniel
|
|
|
