oliwb
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| posted on 4/7/07 at 08:05 PM |
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But 2 different mk employees told me on 2 different occassions that the rear suspension was absolultely no different from the old one. In fact they
said they only change was of in-board shocks. Now if mk don't know what they've changed what am I as a potential customer supposed to
think??
They've been stood still for far too long and now they are racing to catch up. Problem is they're prices now aren't reflecting the
competitions. I could pay £500 more and have the most up to date MNR, with no known flaws, impeccable bodywork, a round tube chassis, a build manual
thats so good they've copyrighted it and can even upgrade and get a cheap race-leda bolt on kit, oh and its all welded properly with no gaps (so
nothing should fall off).....sorry but the indy has obviously had its day. Also what proof have you got that Mac1, mnr and luego copied the indy?
Surely MK would protect they're design? Oli.
If your not living life on the edge you're taking up too much room!
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 4/7/07 at 08:46 PM |
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A few things as I understand it........
The rear suspension on the old indy chassis could do with the upper rear suspension mounts moving a tad, that is if your looking for out and out
11/10ths track performance.
But, the front isn't up to 11/10ths track driving either...........
..................and neither is anyone else's chassis that uses sierra uprights and mushrooms or the like, the front will let you down before
the rear when pushed.
The new chassis ? It is 100% different to the old one, the frame the suspension, the only major component the same is the bodywork, I would be
interested to know who the two different MK employee's where.
Why do I get the feeling I'm gonna regret posting this ?
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ASH3
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| posted on 4/7/07 at 10:37 PM |
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Calvinx.. In deed dont talk in such a manner about my beloved car.
So not only do you insult my pride and
joy but your insulting me now "an ostrich
and a numpty"
As i see it you seem to be only on here to
knock and insult MKs. Your jealous at the success and following the Indy has deservedly gained its self.
5yrs trouble free driving my MK & has given
me every confidence in the Indy thats all the
knowledge i need.
"This is a friendly forum lets keep it that way"
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snoopy
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| posted on 5/7/07 at 06:34 AM |
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perhaps as CaLviNx balls are so big and he and his mate oliwb are obviously chassis and welding experts they should get together and design and
construct the perfect flawless chassis i for one would love to see it
or perhaps they could start smaller and say start with a new de dion axle to replace his obviousley flawed broken gts one
heres a suggested design
Image deleted by owner
its an mk one they have never broken or bent and perhaps may improve your rear geometry if you need to look at it in the flesh try nipping to
mangogrooveworkshop he owns the one in the picture
[Edited on 5/7/07 by snoopy]
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whitestu
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| posted on 5/7/07 at 08:32 AM |
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Hi Mark
You obviously have strong opinions about MK and the Indy in particular.
As an owner of one it would help me if you could make your case a bit more clearly so I can assess the likely impact on me.
What I mean is to say what evidence you have, particularly in relation to the rear suspension on the Indy - i.e how many MK owners have notced the
problem and what the effect has been.
Have there been more Indys crashed than Mac 1s, MNRs etc.
Are they slower on track days?
If there is some evidence that there is a real problem I might look at converting to a de dion as Snoopy suggests.
I think if you could state your case a bit more dispassionately you might get a better response from other forum members.
Stu
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gttman
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| posted on 5/7/07 at 10:23 AM |
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I thought I'd post on here so that CaLviNx could insult me too as I am now feeling a little left out.... said tongue in cheek.
There may well be room for improvement in the MK suspension but it's not dangerous and the car does still handle well even if not perfectly.
It's common for kit companies to trade for a period on their brand, Ultima does the same and hasn't developed its suspension further not
because it can't be imporved (probably worse than an Indy) but because it does not need to.
But from where I am it seems they have done a whole new chasis and suspension..... so maybe a little staff training on what to say to punters is
needed.
This is a public forum, but there is no need to get personnel by insulting people just because they do not agree with your view point.
Life is too short.
Andygtt
Please redefine your limits
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Hellfire
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| posted on 5/7/07 at 12:41 PM |
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I don’t know about anyone else but I’m Bored (with a capital B) and have been for a while, with the inane rambling of certain members with regard to
the rear geometry issues of the Indy. To be fair though, the majority of these people who do the shouting, haven’t actually owned or driven an Indy,
let alone had any experience of driving one in anger around a racetrack. They have simply acquired their apparent knowledge from hear-say and visual
perception. They aren’t particularly knowledgeable about it and couldn’t tell you exactly what is wrong and how to fix it but somehow feel the need to
shout about it loudly as though it’s a major issue, in the hope that some people will take notice and be put off buying the MK Indy chassis.
If you believed half of what they said, you’d expect the Indy to wobble and fall over on every corner of every racetrack in the country but amazingly,
for some strange unknown reason it doesn’t. Could it be that it actually isn’t as bad, as some people would have you believe?
Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not suggesting that the rear geometry on the Indy is perfect by any means. It could and has been improved upon (with the
Indy Type R) But let’s face it, how many indy owners have actually noticed it, let alone complained about it, other than to one particular member of
this forum? (Allegedly) Maybe it’s because they don’t know any different, or maybe just maybe, they’re happy in the knowledge they can hold their own
on track days, against similarly powered vehicles costing in excess of three times as much.
The rear suspension has been modified by MK on their latest chassis, (as stated quite clearly by Mad Dave earlier in this thread) and as such,
there are now various MK chassis to choose from including the Indy. However, the choice of MK chassis is ultimately yours although the Indy has and
continues to provide extremely good value for money.
So… back to the original question at the start of this thread “ Is this a real problem or just bull as i dont want to (quote) end up in a
ditch”
The answer is: If it’s an indy you’re talking about and you intend entering the vehicle in competition it may possibly be a problem. If you
intend doing trackdays in the Indy, or it’s the Indy Type R you are talking about, then it’s just bull. 
Either way, if you’re unfortunate enough to end up in a ditch, it will more than likely be through your own misfortune. Nothing else.
Phil
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Bluemoon
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| posted on 5/7/07 at 01:34 PM |
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Hi,
Been standing on the side lines on this one as well. Well said hellfire, good to see a sensible reply! And for someone that actually drives an
indy.
I can't really comment on the question as I have not driven the indy as it is not built and SVAed yet. As said the supposed problem needs to be
put into context.. Is it a significant problem? I don't think so, but this is my opinion.
I would like to see the comments from people that have had the geometry fixed and say how important the change actually is... They are best placed to
comment.
Also there is nothing such as perfect geometry it is always a compromise...
Cheers
Dan
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jaylatti
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| posted on 5/7/07 at 01:36 PM |
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Blimey what happened while i was away!! I only asked a itty bitty question.. I think its common sense that no kit car chassis is going to be perfect
.It does sound like people have exagerated the slight problem and so i think i sould be able to have a blast around a track with some confidence when
the time comes.Thanks .
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cryoman1965
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| posted on 5/7/07 at 02:02 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jaylatti
Ive recently read in a previous post about a flaw in the design of the mk rear suspension. Is this a real problem or just bull as i dont want to
(quote) end up in a ditch . I know the MK has nowhere near the development as a caterham for example ....
[Edited on 2/7/07 by jaylatti]
Hi was unaware of this supposed flaw in the Indy when i purchased it last year. If i had known about it i may not have brought one reading some of the
posts on here.
I have had the car on the road since last September and have yet to find this flaw they all seem to be talking about.
I don,t concider myself to be a good driver
but i normally drive the car at a reasonable speed most of the time and so far i have avoided the ditches. phew!!
Most kitcars have a slight flaw in one way or another. Whether it be design, construction/fabrication or supply. It is a case of finding out what it
is. And would you be happy with it/put up with it.
Bedford is a fair distance from my location but you are more than welcome to come for a spin so you can see this supposed flaw in action.
If not someone nearer to your location may oblige.
Get a go in, and a good look at all the cars available and ask for an honest opinion from each of the owners, anything they would change, or things
that made there build less enjoyable, which were influenced by the manufacturer.
Most builders would be honest i think in there analysis of there car unless they wear rose tinted specs.
Good luck and i hope you are happy with your final choice
Nige
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graememk
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| posted on 5/7/07 at 04:21 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ASH3
There is nothing to fix, mine is superb and has been from day 1 she was sva'd in 2002 and drives has good as new to this day and behaves both on
the track and road i suggest this post should be deleted cause im gettin cheesed off with it and with some of the unwanted comments now we are all kit
car luvers but some on here are just nit pickers
"I have tried to refrain from commenting but when it comes to meeting at shows face to face to debate such matters then i draw the line. I will
be at Donington but have no desire to meet such folk or welcome them on to our club pitch whoever they maybe"
well said andy......
again i've kept out of this thred for the same reason
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oliwb
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| posted on 6/7/07 at 05:54 PM |
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The way I see it is that you have to way up all the compromises.
The MK is at face value a good value product. However when you take into consideration that anything you build to a decent standard as an average is
going to cost say £8K its not quite such good value as it appears! Take for example the MNR as a comparisson. Here is a kit that is £700 more
initiatly. However, its bodywork production is contracted out to specialists who build GRP boats. I can testify first hand to the quality of it.
Now consider also that you are getting not a generation 1 or 2 design but more like a constant evolution superbly crafted round tube chassis.
I'm sorry but just on the basis of it being a well designed round tube you'd have to be a bit dim not to spend £700 extra on it over the
indy.
As to the design flaw I have to admit I have never driven an Indy in anger so wouldn't know. However I have seen the problem with my own eyes.
Its obvious if you look underneath and at a rear wheel and get a mate to sit on the back you will see that the camber changes to positive and the rear
wheels toe out slightly. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that this means the rear end of the car is steering out of the corner.
Which at the very least will lead to a twitchy, very loose back end feel. At the worst a write off in the ditch.
So as many say if you never pushed it on the road in the dry you may never notice. But whats the point of saving £700 now knowing that there is a
problem there and getting bodwywork that isn't as well made, a build manual that isn't as good and employees of the company that
(apparently) don't even know the chassis has been significantly re-designed! Save your pennies for a couple of months more and look elsewhere.
I'm not saying this as I have something against MK, far from it all the owners I've made have been nice guys. But from my own personal
experience of them and looking at the other options especially all in the one place at Newark I would take my money elsewhere. Not just because of
the inherent flaw....Oli.
If your not living life on the edge you're taking up too much room!
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Fozzie
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| posted on 6/7/07 at 06:35 PM |
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Dear oh Dear.......
This is getting more and more like..
'My toy is better than your toy' .......
A car is as only as good as the builder who builds it......
A kit, of ANY make is only as good as the person who puts the kit together!
A set-up is only as good as the person who sets up the car.......
If, for example a firm called XYZ gives up and someone else takes it over, but still call the firm XYZ, and they produce stuff that maybe isn't
up to the quality of the first owner of firm XYZ......it does NOT mean that everything produced, since the firm very first began is rubbish, or,
'wrong'.......
A valid point has been made to a shoddy chassis displayed at a major show....... but that does not mean that every chassis is bad........
It is up to the purchaser to inspect his/her new chassis/kit bits before taking them away, just like any goods you would buy at any shop!!!!!
Its common sense for goodness sakes!
What on earth the poor newbie must be making of us lot with some of what has been said above makes me shudder.
I will take this opportunity to inform those who do NOT yet know....that all Newbies who now sign up to LocostBuilders are warned about
'Flaming' and 'Insults'....
If any of you can't make a valid comment without flaming or insulting an individual.... or, in other words using the English language properly,
then please DO NOT reply!
Fozzie
'Racing is Life!...anything before or after is just waiting'....Steve McQueen
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matt.c
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| posted on 6/7/07 at 07:47 PM |
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Well said fozzie.
Even though ive been her for a little while now i still havent decided on which kit to go for, was going for the indy but now do i go for the MNR?
Reading all these threads is making my head explode!! Having seen all the recent things wrong with these kits im starting to wonder if i really want
to build on at all!!
Is there a perfect kit?
Is a cateringvan perfect?
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Fozzie
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| posted on 6/7/07 at 08:11 PM |
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I am sorry that you are having such a bad time making a 'kit' decision Matt
Every manufacturer has their good and bad points, and all I can say to you, is try and see as many finished cars that you can, and talk face to face
with the owners....
Perhaps there is a meet of locosters near to you? have a look in 'Clubs and Events' or drop a u2u to someone local to you. 
No, in my personal opinion, there is no such 'perfect kit', we all have our own ideas and aspirations, and our own level of skills, do
plenty of research, ask lots of questions..
Cateringvan perfect? nope...NOT in my personal opinion ......  .....Its in the eye of the beholder......
There is a Cateringvan just about 100 yards from me, that has, I would guess, been built in 'kit form' ....and errrr not very well ....
Try and get to some shows too if you can, bear in mind the pros and cons that you have gained from your own research, and make your own choice...
HTH Fozzie
'Racing is Life!...anything before or after is just waiting'....Steve McQueen
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omega 24 v6
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| posted on 6/7/07 at 08:41 PM |
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quote:
Is there a perfect kit?
Yes there is it's a scratch build with no one to argue with but yourself.
You make your own choices, right or wrong, and live with them, untill you decide they ARE wrong and change your plans AGAIN.
All that said If I was doing it again I'd consider the opinions based on what I saw/discussed with manufacturers at the time. Quality is IMHO
usually easy to spot.
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
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Fozzie
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| posted on 6/7/07 at 08:54 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by omega 24 v6
quote:
Is there a perfect kit?
Yes there is it's a scratch build with no one to argue with but yourself.
You make your own choices, right or wrong, and live with them, untill you decide they ARE wrong and change your plans AGAIN.
All that said If I was doing it again I'd consider the opinions based on what I saw/discussed with manufacturers at the time. Quality is IMHO
usually easy to spot.
Spot on there! Excellent advice
Scratch built is a brilliant way to go...!..only yourself to curse!
Fozzie
'Racing is Life!...anything before or after is just waiting'....Steve McQueen
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whitestu
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| posted on 6/7/07 at 09:55 PM |
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quote:
As to the design flaw I have to admit I have never driven an Indy in anger so wouldn't know. However I have seen the problem with my own eyes.
Its obvious if you look underneath and at a rear wheel and get a mate to sit on the back you will see that the camber changes to positive and the rear
wheels toe out slightly. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that this means the rear end of the car is steering out of the corner.
Which at the very least will lead to a twitchy, very loose back end feel. At the worst a write off in the ditch.
I won't argue with your observations of the rear suspension 'cos I haven't done the same thing as you describe, but your conclusions
don't describe how my car feels on the road.
IMHO there seems to be a lot of conjecture on here and a distinct lack of objectiveness.
Stu
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oliwb
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| posted on 6/7/07 at 10:45 PM |
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I agree its all very subjective. What we really need is someone who's had the MK engineering treatment to come forwards and comment on
it......
Also Fozzie, I have to disagree with you. Whilst I agree the finish of a car is entirely down to the builder you are restricted to the confines of
the product itself unless you are going to change that (in which case you might as well scratch build!) For example there is no way a really well
built Tiger CAT would outperform an equally well built Luego. This is purely down to the weight issue and the fact that the CAT utilises the whole
rear subframe. Whilst what we are talking about is on a smaller scale it still holds true. ie a well built new indy is going to be better in this
respect to a well built old indy. As (hopefully) this flaw has indeed been looked at despite what employees stated. All this of course doesn't
take into consideration at all the varying degree's of quality. If that has gone down hill then the chassis may snap before you discover the
faults with the back end!
My point is purely that whilst the indy may have been a great value product a few years ago it has lost its title to the likes of MNR and alike.
Who's product is of a better quality and more refined. So newbie, whether the indy has a flaw or not you would IMHO be better spending an extra
£700 on the round tube high quality chassis and bodywork from MNR rather than MK. If enough people do this MK will be forced to react and refine
their product further. When they do then maybe then they can justify the expense of the kit. But I'm affraid right now there are too many
problems with it for the cost. Oli.
If your not living life on the edge you're taking up too much room!
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Fozzie
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| posted on 6/7/07 at 11:43 PM |
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Excellent points Ollie...
I think you have hit the nail squarely on the head.......
Champagne taste for lemonade prices.....an old saying, which really means ..
'Ya pays ya money, ya take ya choice'.......
It does depend on the prospective buyers budget, and ability....... you get what you pay for........
As far as performance goes, I was only talking about the actual car.....not what goes under the bonnet.....
I, myself, have seen over the last 6 years many different kits made by all of the 'usual' manufacturers, major improvements over the years
from some, and decline perhaps, from others......
I still favour my 'book' chassis (locost, as opposed to the slightly larger sierra type).... but that is my choice and not everyones
'cup of tea'.
If the OP's question was 'budget not a problem.....which kit manufacturer is best, especially for a one-stop shop, and customer service
first class?'.......then IMHO, there would be only one answer.... ....but that wasn't the question......
As you say, the answers do really lay with MK..... AFAIK MK Engineering produced the locost chassis for a while, and went to the Indy sometime in 2002
and stopped producing the locost chassis.
I think MK Sportscars came to be sometime in 2003?.......and at some point I believe they started producing the locost chassis again as well as the
Indy ..... this is only from my memory.......so could be slightly 'out'.....
Fozzie
'Racing is Life!...anything before or after is just waiting'....Steve McQueen
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 7/7/07 at 09:01 AM |
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But what I dont understand is..........
The new indy does not have this "flaw" so what the eck are you all going on about, and as to things "snapping" in half the
only pics I have seen of something "snapped" in half on here wasnt anything to do with MK.
"its down to MK to respond" they have new chassis ??
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 7/7/07 at 11:48 AM |
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as such I feel there is NOTHING further I can Add to the thread, therefore I feel NO further need to reply.
Kindest Regards
Mark
?????
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 7/7/07 at 02:48 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by CaLviNx
Well what alternative but to reply is there ? when there is thinly veiled comments made.....
So did you get home ok after your issue at Newark then ??
[Edited on 7/7/07 by CaLviNx]
Issue ?
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gttman
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| posted on 7/7/07 at 02:52 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by CaLviNx
quote:
Originally posted by Jon Ison
But what I dont understand is..........
The new indy does not have this "flaw" so what the eck are you all going on about, and as to things "snapping" in half the
only pics I have seen of something "snapped" in half on here wasnt anything to do with MK.
"its down to MK to respond" they have new chassis ??
As for the new chassis having No flaws !!! huh !! where have you been for the last few weeks ??,if you look at recent pictures of the
"new" MK chassis that MK themselves presented etc etc.....
You included it in your reply, but did you read his post?
This is simply becoming a 'don't buy an Indy as other (more expensive) kits are better thread.
We could start that kind of STUPID thread on ANY kit car forum.
Makes me laugh when small issues are blown up by other people they don't effect at all.
The Indy I have was very good value IMO and with one apparent geometry flaw that IS NOT dangerous just causes the car to be livelly but still well
controlable.
As for MNR, I hear they are great, but am I correct they never turn up to shows etc? No company is perfect even the expensive ones.
Andygtt
Please redefine your limits
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MikeR
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| posted on 7/7/07 at 03:21 PM |
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hmmm, that sounds like the start of round two. Perhaps we should all pause for breath, toilet break, get more drinks in ........... or even just lay
it to rest.
The summary is ........
The indy has a geometry fault that most people believe is minor and whilst you won't win the F1 GP in an indy, you're going to be ok on
all roads in the uk (unless of course you're advocating breaking the law and driving in a manner that is dangerous - at which point I
don't care what car you're in, i have no sympathy for you anyway as i could be coming the other way). If you're after 10/10ths on
the race track you may wish to consider other more expensive cars - which also won't be 100% perfect but lots of people think may be better.
What ever you do, before you buy, take a drive in a number of cars, talk to the owners and make your own mind up.
Right, done, can me move on?
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