About the same price as a used busa motor... lol
http://www.muzzys.com/ZX14/ZX14_engines/index.html
Brand New $6295 complete with wiring, thrttle bodies etc...
About the same price as a used busa motor... lol
http://www.muzzys.com/ZX14/ZX14_engines/index.html
good price considering the current $2 to £1 (ish) exchange rate.
I guess shipping would be quite pricey and also the vat that customs would want.
still worth it though.
Help towards getting an 07 plate
Add about 25% on for shipping and vat etc,then it don't work out that cheap.
Malc at yorkshire engines has got one with less than 100miles on, complete with running gear,for about £3000,delivered,now thats a bargain.
IIRC, there will be shipping, VAT and duty (additional tax)... plus No Warranty. Personally, I would prefer to deal with someone somewhere I could go and get things sorted out if necessary (nothing against Yanks per se, just buying something at that distance/cost means there is not much you can do if it doesn't turn out OK)
quote:
Originally posted by Humbug
IIRC, there will be shipping, VAT and duty (additional tax)... plus No Warranty. Personally, I would prefer to deal with someone somewhere I could go and get things sorted out if necessary (nothing against Yanks per se, just buying something at that distance/cost means there is not much you can do if it doesn't turn out OK)
No brain either from what I understood from the ad
ATB
Simon
6,295.00 USD
United States Dollars = 3,208.47 GBP.
Get 'em while they're hot.
Still rather have a busa - more potential and stronger internals.
Sorry what do you base that on?
Both over 300bhp start needing upgraded internals..
And as most people will be keeping their bec motors standard, why not start with a better brand new motor
quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
Sorry what do you base that on?
Both over 300bhp start needing upgraded internals..
And as most people will be keeping their bec motors standard, why not start with a better brand new motor
Bike_Power
You are completely missing the point...
Better, I mean its new, brand new... it has way more torque than an R1 and a Busa... Both need uprated clutches, the busa needs an uprated starter
assembly and dry sumping, the zx14 doesnt...
Yes cases can flex under turbo power, but as I say again, whats the percentage of turbo'd becs compared to stock? And most case flex is down to
inadequate mounting strength in situ, virtually no bec engine mountings I have seen are adequate to prevent case flex on a bike engine... yes they hit
all the mounting points, but most are insuficiently braced to do much other than actually hold the motor in place...
I know of more turbo'd Busa's exploding than anything else, they still need uprated cranks, rods, pistons, etc for the big horsepower... as
standard, both are more than adequate for our applications, indeed, the busa does have a much stronger crank, but it still gets replaced for the big
horse applications...
A good Low mileage busa motor from a wrecked bike will still cost more than this motor will NEW out of a crate..
And a new motor, is the ONLY way to get a brand new registration number... so can you tell me where we get a BRAND NEW BUSA crate motor for a brand
new registration please?
And if we wanna talk about faults, lets talk about the R1 gearboxes, massive extra strain on BECS, and they are fragile on the bikes! GSXR 1000,
nightmare throttle position sensors, constanly going out of adjustment... Having said that, you can at least do away with the secondary butterflies on
a BEC application...
As for the zx14 clutch, gearbox, etc, its a very different beast to the zx12, and doesnt have half the problems of that engine, but I am sure you have
some examples and aren't just regurgitating the same old zx12/busa arguements of old, right?
The fact of the matter is that there is no better motor out there to run stock in a BEC, there may be more economical choices if you want to save
money, and there may be better options if you want to turbocharge... But if you want the best stock motor, best torque, best horsepower, enough to
mean half a second a lap in an equivalent application, then the zx14 is cheaper... or you can get it brand new for the same price as a second hand
busa...
The choice is yours, you stick with your Busa if that's what you want, I have provided an alternative for others who want something different....
PS you know the difference between potential and reality dont you...
Ask your sister and your mother if they would sleep with brad pitt for £1m..
If they say yes, potentially you have £2m, but in reality they are just whores
Happy christmas
Did "G.Man" just call "Bike_power's" Mother and sister whores.
quote:
Originally posted by the moa 2
Did "G.Man" just call "Bike_power's" Mother and sister whores.
The potential of the zx14 motor should not be taken lightly. The Busa is a proven runner in lots of applications, but the new "14" has
power and torque capabilities that are jaw dropping for a 200# lump. This is a brand new bike, so aftermarket developers are just now tapping the
abilities of this motor. CC racing there in the UK is doing amazing stuff with a huge turbo (building for a speed run) and both ATP and Mr. Turbo
here in the States are introducing new stage I street systems that are producing some amazing numbers with small amounts of boost.
The FIRST dyno run for the new Mr. Turbo system produced nearly 270 HP and over 150 #torque with just 5 lbs of boost! Last time I checked it takes
way more boost than that for a busa to make that kind of HP, and forget about the torque! See:
http://www.zx14.net/publicforum/index.php?topic=518.80
Just imagine the power the motor could make with a turbo installation that isn’t hampered by the small confines of a motorcycle. That same 5# of
boost could generate some scary numbers with an intercooler and proper tuning.
your all talking about modding the engines already etc etc
WTF would the thing go like as it is standard bit scary i reckon
Ohhh, looks like I hit a nerve with Mrs G Man Keep your knickers on
The flexing has nothing at all to do with how the engine is mounted, it's to do with how the crank is secured within the engine, how the cases
mate and are secured. The busa crank also flexes but there are known fixes for the problem, will those fixes work with the zx14 ? Who knows ?
People like big cc will find out I'm sure but for now, it's unknown. Will the barels cope with the increased cylinder pressure ? Will the
crank take the power ? All unknown but with the busa the answer to all these questions is yes. Low risk.
Too many unknowns for the zx14 to be the ideal engine and worth spending all that cash on. If you're happy to spend best part of £2k extra to
get 30bhp more than the R1 is delivering for £1200 or so, then fine, but that's not good value in my book. A full busa kit is now £2200-£2500
and that gives 175bhp, spend £1k extra and you get 190ish bhp if you build it yourself (bolt in pistons, cams, timing) and you've still got the
strength and reliability that's built into and proven with the busa.
Even if all you want is to keep the engine stock, who knows yet how it will stand up to 10 track days and 10,000 miles of road use. The R1 and busa
will be fine. I'm not keen on the R1 to be honest but as a cheap engine that deliveres good power it's difficult to beat.
Anyway, I don't have a sister and my mother would be very surprised to hear such an ugly man talking about her like that
quote:
Originally posted by zxrlocost
your all talking about modding the engines already etc etc
WTF would the thing go like as it is standard bit scary i reckon
Always
need more power, it's a never ending process.
not after spending three grand I wouldnt
r1 is good for money
hayabusa is good as you can leave it in a higher gear to pull away from equivalent cars ie a blade bec
And still you havent mentioned where you can get brand new crate R1 or Busa motors for..
Like I said, this was posted for people who might be looking to build a brand new car, on an 07 registration... if you want a second hand zx14, they
can be had far cheaper than the Busa...
So bike power, if you are gonna compare like for like, try doing it on a level playing field..
Malc will do a full zx14 kit, low mileage, for far less than the £2.5k you are quoting for a Busa....
As for 30bhp, the late model r1 delivers all that BHP due to rpm, its torque I am interested in, the zx12r already beat the BUSA in both columns, the
zx14 takes that even further...
BTW, rather be ugly than dumb
full zx14 kit for far less than 2.5k???
Cheapest ZZR 1400 engine I've seen on here was £3,000 from Malc at Yorkshire Engines
Phil
how big are they
surely there going to stick out upwards and downwards a bit
take it there going to need dry sumping aswell?
Sizes as follows (From one of Malcs previous posts)
height top to sump /block face 17 inch
including sump pan 21 inch (sump is all at sprocket end)
width 20 inch
length 16 inch
And from one of G-Mans comments earlier in this thread, the ZZR1400 doesn't require dry sumping.
Phil
quote:
Originally posted by zxrlocost
full zx14 kit for far less than 2.5k???
quote:
Originally posted by zxrlocost
take it there going to need dry sumping aswell?
ok so lets say 3k
But then Ive got specialist engine mounting to be done fabricated exhaust etc
powercommander
and how much are the baffle chops etc
Im going to be looking at 4k where as my original locost zx9r engine costs 500 quid which will still be fun
its back to that where do you draw the line for that sunday fun
Am I missing something here ?
Brand New $6295 complete with wiring, thrttle bodies etc...
About the same price as a used busa motor... lol
Where does it say how much better than any other motor they are ?
Happy new year.
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/Article_Page.aspx?ArticleID=3504
some at the wheel dyno printouts, about 10% on torque and bhp for the zx over the Busa...
However, its about whether these numbers add up and to 180mph from standstill the ZX is about half a second faster, so in reality you are talking
about the same per lap all else being equal (chassis driver etc)..
quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
And still you havent mentioned where you can get brand new crate R1 or Busa motors for..
Like I said, this was posted for people who might be looking to build a brand new car, on an 07 registration... if you want a second hand zx14, they can be had far cheaper than the Busa...
So bike power, if you are gonna compare like for like, try doing it on a level playing field..
Malc will do a full zx14 kit, low mileage, for far less than the £2.5k you are quoting for a Busa....
As for 30bhp, the late model r1 delivers all that BHP due to rpm, its torque I am interested in, the zx12r already beat the BUSA in both columns, the zx14 takes that even further...
BTW, rather be ugly than dumb
Sorry, I can see what Gman is going on about its a good option for those wanting to be different etc.... not everyone wants to go the tried and tested
route.
But regarding the 07 plate, you don't have to have a brand new motor to get a new plate. One component needs to be fully reconditioned and this
can be the motor.... so you could have a 2nd hand engined and still get a new plate.
The argument of 'Which is faster, Busa or ZX12R' goes back six years now. Busa owners will say Busa, ZX12R owners will say ZX12R. Both camps
will be able to provide tables, graphs and video footage to prove their claims.
Personally, I don't really care which is best. What I do know is that the 12 is considerably cheaper than the Busa for more/same/less power and
at present we have been more than happy with our choice of engine.
An almost new ZZR1400 can be had for a few hundred pounds more than a well used Busa and raises the bar again in terms of BHP and torque. Yes, the
reliablilty issues are somewhat unknown at present but I'm sure that won't put anyone off using one in a BEC application.
If you want to do a similar comparison, how much are new Busa engines from Power-Tec?
Phil
I am very tempted by the engine, but then Ive got to remind myself that like now its pissing down and the car will be sitting in the garage...
its a lot of money unless your absolutely dedicated to track days ets
who knows in a months time
quote:
Originally posted by bike_power
Your first post said the ZX14 was available for the same price as a used busa, you only mentioned the 07 plate thing after somebody else posted and even then you forgot to add VAT and import duty.
quote:
Originally posted by gttman
Sorry, I can see what Gman is going on about its a good option for those wanting to be different etc.... not everyone wants to go the tried and tested route.
But regarding the 07 plate, you don't have to have a brand new motor to get a new plate. One component needs to be fully reconditioned and this can be the motor.... so you could have a 2nd hand engined and still get a new plate.
Agree... but you would need to do that even if the engine was new... only one component is allowed to be reconditioned.
If it was my money I'd buy a BMW V12 from ebay for £10.51 and then slap a pair of turbos on for 600+bhp...
Vosa will accept the entire rear axle assembly as one part for purposes of reconditioning..
Set of raceleda uprights at the front, and you are pretty much covered, I believe MNR did this with their demonstrator
"and torque is THE most important thing as torque = accelleration... BHP is just a multiple of torque/rpm so without the torque in the first
place you get no BHP... "
actually there are an awful lot of terms missing from that equation, including primary and secondary gear ratios, diff ratio, driving wheel effective
radius & torque lost in the various bearings and gearboxes.....
However, the equation:
power = mass x speed x acceleration
IS correct and complete and might be viewed as more easily applicable!
Forgive me - just having a nitpicky moment: l
Bob
You are indeed correct.. it wasnt meant to be an accurate equation, the correct equation is bhp=torque x rpm / 5252 which is why on a dyno printout
the torque and power curves cross at 5252 rpm
G-Man, you state some silly things, torque being higher in the 12 than the busa ? Come on, where did you read that ? Even Kawasaki don't claim
that for it. Actually, having thought again, don't show me, I can't cope with idiot arguments like that.
I mentioned the 12 because you did first, you stated that the 14 was a completely different engine from the 12 when I questioned the strength of an
unknown gearbox. I'd not mentioned it before you because I wasn't making broad brush comparisons.
Your assumption that torque is all that counts is completely wrong, somebody has tried to point this out to you but you've pretty much ignored
it. If you were correct then a Rover V8 engined 7 would be much faster than a Busa engined 7 - the V8 will have at least double the torque at a much
lower rpm than the busa and it will also have a much flatter torque curve.
The fact is that a stock busa engined (all other things being equal) 7 will spank a 200 lb ft Rover V8 engined 7 into next week - that's why we
all build them isn't it ?
You need to reconsider your position with respect to gearing, rpm, weight, torque and power because you're missing something very important.
As for the R1, have you been up against an R1 car on a track ? You wouldn't dismiss that engine as quickly as you do if you had.
Getting back to the original point of this "debate" the ZX14 might be a great engine but not for the money they cost right now and given
that it's a completely unknown engine. You were recommending people rush out and buy one without any thought to how reliable or strong they will
be in a car.
The ZX12, Busa and R1 are all proven to be reasonably strong, reliable engines that deliver the goods - the 14 isn't in that list yet and
won't be until at least the end of next summer.
Phew . . .
(Edited to add: Just noticed that you have a ZX12 engined car . . . which explains a lot.)
[Edited on 29/12/06 by bike_power]
Perhaps because the rover v8 and box weighs SUBSTANTIALLY more...
And the top speed will be lower on the rv8 as the max power is generally lower on most models... like I said before ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL.. same car,
same weight, then torque becomes a factor...
I could provide you with some evidence, but I doubt you could read it... and countering your zx14 claims by saying the zx14 is not the same as the
faults with a zx12 is hardly bringing the zx12 into the argument...
The torque figures I had for the busa and the zx12 came from a BEC article, it was probably wrong... but I know the zx12r has its torque at higher RPM
which is a good thing... with the right gearing...
I have made no position on gearing etc, where the hell have you read that?
No I have not been up against an R1 car on the track, I have been in one, probably driven by a more competent driver than most will ever go in the car
with...
If the R1 was more than amatch for a ZX12r then we would see more of them in the top positions of the BEC championship I would suggest..
Out of the zx12r and the BUSA motor, I would agree the BUSA is the better motor, with no doubt in my mind...
But eh zx14 is a different beast...
Shows the zx14, stock at 17 miles and 124 miles....
103 lb/ft and 169.45 bhp WHP... No stock BUSA makes those numbers.. A stock BUSA makes 80 lb/ft at the red line, zx12r makes 85lb/ft at the red line
and the zx14 is making 91.58 at the red line...
Peak on the BUSA is better than the zx12r, but the zx12r has a flatter torque curve with less drop off hence why it manages to post very similar,
albeit lower, performance figures than the BUSA..
The zx14 is well known in drag racing, and working well... yes its not as well known in a car application as a BUSA but it soon will be... Oh and dont
forget, suzuki and kawasaki collaborate on engine development.. so the similarities between them are greater than you would think...
I have run R1's and GSXR1000's in bike racing including BSB for many years, so I am a little more familiar with R1's than you would
think, and I would never use an R1 in a car because the gearbox sucks ass.... sucks much worse than any kwack box... I have lost count of the number
of R1 gearboxes we have killed, we never killed a zx or gsxr box..
Anyway, you have stated your preference, and thats fair enough... its still a good price for a good engine that will aid you getting an 07 plate...
like I said... hwoever, if you want to avoid all the import duty, vat etc, you will probably have to source one thru kawasaki in holland...
How much are the BUSA crate motors btw?
[Edited on 29/12/06 by G.Man]
Hang on, gman just pointed out that you could buy the ZX14.... he certainly didn't start saying it was the be all and end all, just ended
defending from people saying how unsuitable it is just because they prefer the busa or R1.
And I think it was the ZX14 that was said to have more torque than the Busa not the ZX12.
And if all things were equal the car with more torque over the same rev range WILL be faster... torque is the measure of power of the engine.
[Edited on 29/12/06 by gttman]
quote:
Originally posted by gttman
Hang on, he just pointed out that you could buy the ZX14.... he certainly didn't start saying it was the be all and end all, just ended defending from people saying how unsuitable it is just because they prefer the busa or R1.
And I think it was the ZX14 that was said to have more torque than the Busa not the ZX12.
And if all things were equal the car with more torque over the same rev range WILL be faster... torque is the measure of power of the engine.
Thats OK there is nothing wrong with being mad.... Did I mention that one of the R1 engines I have for my Indy is 160WHP.
and the busa is still the BEC daddy lol.
[Edited on 29/12/06 by gttman]
[Edited on 29/12/06 by gttman]
160whp is pathetic... we have one r1 thats over 200whp, its rediculous to ride...
I would love a 650bhp Busa turbo in my car... but I cant afford the £15k it would cost to get it reliably... lol...
[Edited on 29/12/06 by G.Man]
quote:
I would love a 650bhp Busa turbo in my car... but I cant afford the £15k it would cost to get it reliably... lol...
[Edited on 29/12/06 by G.Man]
Bouldy has a rover v8 indy
standing start I dont think he could compete
but BIG BUT!!!!!!!!
from 60 ie rolling already etc his car would tear up the tarmac aint much keeping up with a v8 kit car
tut tut - another one at it...
"torque is the measure of power of the engine."
no it isn't.
power is the measure of the power of an engine.
I agree with the underlying sentiment, that it's a wide spread of torque (or power) that makes the power usable and accessible. However,
accelerating a vehicle is increasing it's kinetic energy. The rate of energy increase is called POWER.
All arguments about whether power is more important than torque are, in fact, badly stated comments on the ideal shape of the power OR torque graphs.
And they always make me want to have a little rant. This is it.
All the best
Bob
You distort the point. Torque is the measure of an engines power.
Fact is, it is measured at different RPM's to establish the dynamics of the engine which are what you are reffering to.
You will get no argument from me that the power curve is the most important aspect of an engine... but at the end of the day this is only a measure of
the torque at different RPM's.
No gttman, torque is not a way to measure power.
Torque is something we can measure easily that can be used to calculate power.
If you measure only the torque you do not know anything about the power of an engine. You also need to know the rpm.
Torque is a measure of force, power is a measure of energy/time.
So if you have two engines with the same torque, but one delivers that torque at a rpm higher than the other, the higher revving engine will yield
better performance (using correct gearing). That is the reason F1 is chasing higher and higher rpms at the cost of millions each year...
quote:
Originally posted by Lippoman
If you measure only the torque you do not know anything about the power of an engine. You also need to know the rpm.
Maybe I should point out that I am not saying having a high torque figure is more important than having a high Power figure...... Its entirelly down
to application.
On my GTT I hope to get more BHP than Torque... but this mystical power increase is only acheived by moving the torque curve high up the RPM.
If torque was a figure of the power you would not need to know any other variable to calculate it.
Power can be transformed into any torque by use of gearing, but a double the power engine gives double the torque at the wheels at the same road
speed, even if the shaft torque is equal (or less).
The powerband is what makes the engine usable, power (the area under the power/rpm-curve) tells us how fast it will be; shaft torque is of less
importance, that is mainly needed to design the transmission.
The only torque that is really of interest is the wheel torque and that can be derived from power.
If you hang a 100lb weight on a tree branch, 1 foot out from the trunk - you are applying 100ft lbs of torque to the joint of branch and trunk.
That's a healthy amount of torque!
And the power level is.........??? zero
As a motor drives designer I need to have a very clear "physics textbook" understanding of these physical quantities, which is why I tend to
squirm a bit when "pub talk" type statements are made by folk with a different understanding!!! But we are all free to say, believe and
understand whatever we want so happy new year to everyone ;^)
Bob
Sorry but You need to read what I said, I know that Torque AND rpm are used to calculate power and I never said anything different.
If you have no torque you also have no power...
If as engine experts you can demostrate that and engine with a flat 100ftlb from 1000-7000rpm redline can be more powerful than an engine with a flat
120ftlb over exactly the same range, then you will have proved me wrong.
quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
quote:
Originally posted by gttman
Hang on, he just pointed out that you could buy the ZX14.... he certainly didn't start saying it was the be all and end all, just ended defending from people saying how unsuitable it is just because they prefer the busa or R1.
And I think it was the ZX14 that was said to have more torque than the Busa not the ZX12.
And if all things were equal the car with more torque over the same rev range WILL be faster... torque is the measure of power of the engine.
Thanks Andy, I was beginning to think I was mad, love the look of your GT car btw..
I would also like to say, that an RV8 engined 7, or even a decent cossie turbo, with a sequential box, will give a bike engined car a good run for its money, however, the weight will slow it in the corners, and THAT'S the reason we build bike engined cars..
[Edited on 29/12/06 by G.Man]
Aye Aey Aey, Cccalm down Cccalm down (as a curly haired Scouser with a dodgy tash once said).
Some of you know that I have now moved to Oz and as I am sat at home bored on new years day I thought I would check out the good ol’ Locostbuilders
site.
I suppose I'm not surprised to see that the same old arguments are still taking place! It just needs someone to drop it in here that bike engine
aren't as good as car engines anyway and all hell is gonna break loose! Ha ha.
Ignoring driveability and concentrating on balls out performance, do we all agree on the following points?
Engine torque is an important factor in making a car go quickly but is meaningless unless combined with speed.
Quoting a peak torque value alone is an unsuitable indication of performance.
All that really matters for sheer performance is the POWER at the wheels over a given (useable) rpm range.
An engine that produces more torque over a similar rpm range will produce more power in a similarly geared installation.
If you use an R1, Busa, ZX12R or ZZR14 your car will go like stink and the parameter most likely to affect you track times is your ability as a
driver.
As for me, I am doing a ZX10R conversion to get me through tough Aussie Design Rules emissions so I will keep you all posted on my progress.
Anybody else on here done a ZX10R yet?
Marc
quote:
Originally posted by bike_power
Show me a Rover V8 engined 7 with about 200 lb ft (double a busa) and the same weight as a busa powered 7 and the busa powered car will be faster. You only have to go to any track day to find out. It's not just about torque, there is a whole lot more to it . . . and no, weight isn't the only answer either.
If you take only torque you have a figure that tells "nothing" about the engines power, if you mix in the rpm's, you're not
talking torque anymore, you're talking power.
Torque has nothing to do with time, it is a static measure (lbsft or Nm). As soon as you enter a "per second" or "per minute" (or
per any other unit of time) into the equation you convert it into power.
quote:
Originally posted by bike_power
quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
quote:
Originally posted by gttman
Hang on, he just pointed out that you could buy the ZX14.... he certainly didn't start saying it was the be all and end all, just ended defending from people saying how unsuitable it is just because they prefer the busa or R1.
And I think it was the ZX14 that was said to have more torque than the Busa not the ZX12.
And if all things were equal the car with more torque over the same rev range WILL be faster... torque is the measure of power of the engine.
Thanks Andy, I was beginning to think I was mad, love the look of your GT car btw..
I would also like to say, that an RV8 engined 7, or even a decent cossie turbo, with a sequential box, will give a bike engined car a good run for its money, however, the weight will slow it in the corners, and THAT'S the reason we build bike engined cars..
[Edited on 29/12/06 by G.Man]
I didn't claim the ZX14 was great - you did G Man, you pointed out that they were cheap and they were great, different from the ZX12 and without half the problems of the old engine. (page 2)
---> YOU SAID: "The fact of the matter is that there is no better motor out there to run stock in a BEC"
So you are mad, or simply have no memory or you say stuff that's got no foundation in truth so forget it very easily.
---> You did it again on page 4: "The zx12r also makes more torque than the BUSA so it isn't all RPM based anyway... "
You need to remember the bullshit you come out with so you don't trip yourself up.
Show me a Rover V8 engined 7 with about 200 lb ft (double a busa) and the same weight as a busa powered 7 and the busa powered car will be faster. You only have to go to any track day to find out. It's not just about torque, there is a whole lot more to it . . . and no, weight isn't the only answer either.
G-man, you simply quote bullshit figures and ignore fact and information quoted by people who obviously understand things far better than you (the post from Bob C) , you even deny saying things you said only a couple of pages ago, how have you managed to complete your car and get it on the road ?
I thought you might have had something interesting to say but you sound like a shandy drinking pub bullshitter
quote:
Originally posted by Lippoman
If you take only torque you have a figure that tells "nothing" about the engines power, if you mix in the rpm's, you're not talking torque anymore, you're talking power.
Torque has nothing to do with time, it is a static measure (lbsft or Nm). As soon as you enter a "per second" or "per minute" (or per any other unit of time) into the equation you convert it into power.
quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
I compared with the zx12r as you were once again spouting bollox about faults with the zx14r which were just regurgitated zx12r problems... hence why I brought in the comparison...
I did not deny anything with regard to BobC's post, I should have said, torque gives acceleration, but I said equals instead... you are that dumb you dont even know the difference..
I still stand by the comment the zx14 is the best motor to run stock in a BEC, you have a difference of opinion... baaaaa
quote:
Originally posted by gttman
quote:
Originally posted by bike_power
Show me a Rover V8 engined 7 with about 200 lb ft (double a busa) and the same weight as a busa powered 7 and the busa powered car will be faster. You only have to go to any track day to find out. It's not just about torque, there is a whole lot more to it . . . and no, weight isn't the only answer either.
This is only because a 7 type can't take the torque of a Rover V8 but can handle a busa.... build a car that can harness the torque better and it would be a different story.
quote:
Originally posted by Lippoman
If you take only torque you have a figure that tells "nothing" about the engines power, if you mix in the rpm's, you're not talking torque anymore, you're talking power.
Torque has nothing to do with time, it is a static measure (lbsft or Nm). As soon as you enter a "per second" or "per minute" (or per any other unit of time) into the equation you convert it into power.
quote:
Originally posted by bike_power
What I am saying is that the busa will be faster round a circuit, or in a straight line or in any other measure you care to come up with. I know this is the case, this is what happened when people first started putting bike engines in cars.
If the V8 is making more power than the busa then of courtse it will be faster but then the V8 will also have more than 200 lb ft of torque.
This "debate" over torque vs power has been raging through most of the motor fora I visit and I may have a tendency to preach.
I know that torque is used to calculate power, this is because it is simple to measure torque. If there was a simple way to directly measure power,
I'm certain the dynos would use this instead.
If I have offended you in any way, I offer my most sincere apologies...
What you fail to identify is that 2 engines of the same peak BHP, say a cosworth 2 litre and a mildly tuned BUSA..
In a vehicle of the same weight, using these engines, the Cosworth would be faster..
A cosworth engine will make an escort fly, because it has the torque to move the weight quickly...
Use a BUSA engine of 200bhp in an escort, and the busa engine wont be anywhere near as fast....
Yes you can increase BHP by raising rpm, but you cannot raise torque without increasing the amount of fuel and air burned in each cylinder...
So its the force on the wheel (leverage aka torque) that provides the increase in the rpm of the wheel against resistance... ie acceleration...
The lack of torque in a bike is overcome by using the primary reduction as a torque multiplier...
If you wanted to see the difference torque makes, you would have to remove the bike engine from its box and therefore the primary reduction, and then
see ..
Thankfully, we can tell much more easily, compare the performance of a BUSA to a ZX14 or a ZX12
Busa vs zx12 the early torque of the busa gives it a lead from standing start, zx12 narrows the gap at higher rpm, but the busa is still faster, as
its torque is higher than the zx12's which has higher rpm related horsepower...
ZX14 vs Busa... ZX14 pulls away early and the Busa never catches it... due to higher torque and higher bhp....
To quote "'Allo, 'allo":
"Listen very carefully, I will only say this once."
The powerband is what separates the Cossy from the 'Busa. If you can get the engine to stay at its peak by using gear shifts the higher power
will translate into higher force=better acceleration. That is why "peaky" engines usually are accompanied by multiple speed gearboxes or
(ideally) CVTs. Why do you think FIA outlawed CVTs in F1? The acceleration and hence the speeds would have been maximised by allowing the engines to
stay at peak power at all times.
If shaft torque was "the thing" that gave acceleration, then you would change gears as soon as the torque curve passes its peak.
If you have an engine that delivers x power at a certain (road) speed and another that delivers 1,5x power at the same speed, the more powerful engine
will have 1,5x the force to accelerate. Regardless of which engine has the higher shaft torque.
Rpms is one way that you can get more air and more fuel to burn in the same time and that translates into higher torque at the wheels using correct
transmission.
I give up, you win, an engine with more torque and more bhp, is not as good as Busa..
quote:
Originally posted by Lippoman
This "debate" over torque vs power has been raging through most of the motor fora I visit and I may have a tendency to preach.
I know that torque is used to calculate power, this is because it is simple to measure torque. If there was a simple way to directly measure power, I'm certain the dynos would use this instead.
If I have offended you in any way, I offer my most sincere apologies...
I did not state that a 'busa was better than a Cossie, you stated they were equal in terms of peak power. So what really sets them apart then is
the powerband.
A well built turboengine generally has the best of several worlds, having loads of mid range as well as top end power, making it easy to stay within
the powerband. But the cost of building and maintaining a high power turboengine is not for every budget.
Stating that the weight of the Cossie with sequential transmission would be equal to a 'busa engined is a bit of twisting the world to suit ones
taste, the BEC builder should be ashamed if he couldn't bring it way lower on the scales. And if you the take costs into consideration, then its
really time to wake up and smell the coffee (as long as you keep the BEC fairly stock)...
I stated that the engine with the higher power will outperform the other regardless of shaft torque with the correct transmission, so how did you come
up with the above sentence?
I favor BECs of any flavor due to their inherent lack of weight when compared to car engines, the lack of low range torque is something I'll have
to learn to live with. I'm also infatuated to the screaming sound of an engine passing 10 krpm, and sequential gearboxes.
My remarks were made in general terms and I used the 'busa and Cossie as references only as they already had been brought up.
Lippoman
I got fed up of discussing it, because people keep completely ignoring what I post...
Yes the busa has same or similar BHP, but if it hasnt got the torque to shift a heavier weight in the first place its gonna be no good in a FORD
ESCORT...
Yes, in our application the car is light enough that the lower torque isnt so much of an issue...
I used the escort in my above example, I could have used a cosworth sierra, remove the cossie engine and slap in a busa... lets see how the car goes
then....
To accelerate a car you need ft/lb's...
Try this... get your vehicle to its peak torque rpm in 1st gear and floor it, then try it at peak horsepower..
The car will accelerate much faster at its peak torque than it will at peak bhp...
Drag racers know that an increase in torque will result in a reduction in ET, and an increase in BHP with no change to torque will result in a peak
speed and slower ET....
Its the difference between torque and power...
Ideally you want as much torque as possible maintained for as wide an rpm band as possible, that give you your work rate... horsepower...
quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
I got fed up of discussing it, because people keep completely ignoring what I post...
: Mrs G-Boy 
bike_power, may I ask you what your experience is?
you post anonymously and dont appear tobe building anything, so what exactly are your "qualifications"
I mean you patronise in the extreme, read the bits you choose and interpret them in a twisted manner to make your arguments seem stronger..
Then you post a number of pathetic cartoons to try and belittle me..
So come on, I have openly stated my experience here, so give me yours...
or are you just a troll that completely ignores the original posts to start some trouble?
PS we are on page 2 now if you know how to tweak your forums views...
quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
bike_power, may I ask you what your experience is?
you post anonymously and dont appear tobe building anything, so what exactly are your "qualifications"
I mean you patronise in the extreme, read the bits you choose and interpret them in a twisted manner to make your arguments seem stronger..
Then you post a number of pathetic cartoons to try and belittle me..
So come on, I have openly stated my experience here, so give me yours...
or are you just a troll that completely ignores the original posts to start some trouble?
PS we are on page 2 now if you know how to tweak your forums views...
I'll
have to torque to my Doctor about this
Look children, enough already! More power is always good, who cares where it comes from?! Please give it up! There's enough bitching on here as it is.
letting it drop
:->
[Edited on 4/1/07 by G.Man]
Thank you sir! Sorry if that all sounded a bit angry headmaster.
quote:
Originally posted by DIY Si
Thank you sir! Sorry if that all sounded a bit angry headmaster.
Now, now.......
quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
quote:
Originally posted by DIY Si
Thank you sir! Sorry if that all sounded a bit angry headmaster.
LOL, had nothing to do with your post, I just realised that my wit deficit wasnt as bad as someones iq deficit...
quote:
Originally posted by bike_power
quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
quote:
Originally posted by DIY Si
Thank you sir! Sorry if that all sounded a bit angry headmaster.
LOL, had nothing to do with your post, I just realised that my wit deficit wasnt as bad as someones iq deficit...
Hooray ! At least you read one of my posts ! Progress Mr G.Man, progress