Hello!
Just finished mapping a turbocharged 1300cc HC X flow in a mk1 escort.
Maybe of interest to the folks who are running X flows in there cars, the conversion was not done by us, it was done by the customer using mostly
scrapyard bits.
The engine is a totally stock 1300cc HC from around 1974.
Vectra 1.7L diesel turbocharger mounted on cut and welded stock cast X flow manifold
front mounted intercooler (not sure what car that was off)
homemade exhaust downpipe connected to Escort system
Saab dump valve
Jenvey single throttle body mounted on stock 1300cc X flow carb inlet manifold
single 750cc/min injector
Bosch fuel pump
weber alpha FPR
Ford coilpack (dizzy removed)
36-1 trigger wheel
megasquirt MS3
The car made 110BHP at 5800RPM and 121lb/ft at 3300RPM at 8PSI of boost on 95RON, this is more than a good 2.0L pinto!!
It would make over 140BHP with more boost (12PSI), but we tuned it for MPG and to use 95RON fuel.
It used to amaze me how much effort used to go into getting bigger power outputs from 1172cc side valve Fords, same applies these days you can go into any scrap yard and buy a 14 year old 1.4 litre that gives 102bhp out of the box which might have less peak torque but it has no turbo lag.
Im interested!
please post pics, of the setup
Steve (1700 crossflow)
Impressive results from a 1.3 with scrapyard parts
Looking forward to the new Ford Ecotechs
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
It used to amaze me how much effort used to go into getting bigger power outputs from 1172cc side valve Fords, same applies these days you can go into any scrap yard and buy a 14 year old 1.4 litre that gives 102bhp out of the box which might have less peak torque but it has no turbo lag.
What size was the Jenvey TB? Or is that a stupid question in view of the fact it is on a standard manifold?
Or was the manifold opened up somewhat?
Very interesting post, thanks.
quote:
Originally posted by steve m
Im interested!
please post pics, of the setup
Steve (1700 crossflow)
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
It used to amaze me how much effort used to go into getting bigger power outputs from 1172cc side valve Fords, same applies these days you can go into any scrap yard and buy a 14 year old 1.4 litre that gives 102bhp out of the box which might have less peak torque but it has no turbo lag.
If only I had some cash.
quote:
Originally posted by Confused but excited.
What size was the Jenvey TB? Or is that a stupid question in view of the fact it is on a standard manifold?
Or was the manifold opened up somewhat?
Very interesting post, thanks.
quote:
Originally posted by snapper
Impressive results from a 1.3 with scrapyard parts
Looking forward to the new Ford Ecotechs
"of course, you know what would be good, a turbo pinto!! 500BHP possible!! "
but you would need a chassis, built like the titanic to hold it
quote:
Originally posted by steve m
"of course, you know what would be good, a turbo pinto!! 500BHP possible!! "
but you would need a chassis, built like the titanic to hold it
Err
no a turbo 1700 xflow would hit the spot
Steve
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
quote:
Originally posted by Confused but excited.
What size was the Jenvey TB? Or is that a stupid question in view of the fact it is on a standard manifold?
Or was the manifold opened up somewhat?
Very interesting post, thanks.
Hi, thanks for your interest!
The inlet manifold was stock single carb version, just cleaned up with the grinder, not opened. Water heating retained.
A single 45mm jenvey (single throttle plate) with a single 750cc injector fitted.
quote:
Originally posted by steve m
Err
no a turbo 1700 xflow would hit the spot
Steve
quote:
Originally posted by Confused but excited.
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
quote:
Originally posted by Confused but excited.
What size was the Jenvey TB? Or is that a stupid question in view of the fact it is on a standard manifold?
Or was the manifold opened up somewhat?
Very interesting post, thanks.
Hi, thanks for your interest!
The inlet manifold was stock single carb version, just cleaned up with the grinder, not opened. Water heating retained.
A single 45mm jenvey (single throttle plate) with a single 750cc injector fitted.
Thanks for taking the time to reply. Much appreciated, cheers.
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
Lets not forget the Ford RS200 engine was a 711M block!! (800BHP!!)
I thought diesel turbos where supposed to be a bad idea on petrol engines - something to do with the exhaust gass temperature. Petrol is a lot higher
and destroys them or something. Am i wrong?
Very interested in this as I've been wondering about supercharging a xflow recently.
What did the bloke do to reduce the compression in the engine?
Bought a 2 litre Zetec from scrappy, £150. Bolted strait to standard Ford bellhousing. Fitting bits cost me, don't they always but still using
them 10 years later. Used 45's from old engine with a Weber Alpha ECU and it made 160 corrected bhp. Later put in a pair of Kent FZ2002 cams,
made 178 corrected bhp.
The torque was there from tickover with the standard engine, you needed at least 3000 rpm on the clock with the FZ2002's before it really got
going, in reality I preferred the standard engine on the road, run a standard engine now.
Makes 110 bhp form a turbo x-flow with all the work and potential unreliability look like a total waste of time and effort.
Yours is a 2.0 zetec
110bhp is form a 1300 standard engine
thats "why"
For me part of the reason for playing with a fun car, is the tinkering and playing about with ideas which to me is all part of the fun
There maybe a few reasons not to turbo a 1.3 xflow, but why not if it puts a smile on his face, good on him and respect
Ian
quote:
Originally posted by Oddified
For me part of the reason for playing with a fun car, is the tinkering and playing about with ideas which to me is all part of the fun
There maybe a few reasons not to turbo a 1.3 xflow, but why not if it puts a smile on his face, good on him and respect
Ian
quote:
Originally posted by gazza285
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
Lets not forget the Ford RS200 engine was a 711M block!! (800BHP!!)
Lets not let fact get in the way of a good tale either. The BDT had an aluminium block with nikasil liners. Based on the 711, yes, only in bore spacing and bearing sizes. Identical? Not even near.
quote:
Originally posted by Paul Turner
Bought a 2 litre Zetec from scrappy, £150. Bolted strait to standard Ford bellhousing. Fitting bits cost me, don't they always but still using them 10 years later. Used 45's from old engine with a Weber Alpha ECU and it made 160 corrected bhp. Later put in a pair of Kent FZ2002 cams, made 178 corrected bhp.
The torque was there from tickover with the standard engine, you needed at least 3000 rpm on the clock with the FZ2002's before it really got going, in reality I preferred the standard engine on the road, run a standard engine now.
Makes 110 bhp form a turbo x-flow with all the work and potential unreliability look like a total waste of time and effort.
quote:
Originally posted by MikeR
I thought diesel turbos where supposed to be a bad idea on petrol engines - something to do with the exhaust gass temperature. Petrol is a lot higher and destroys them or something. Am i wrong?
Very interested in this as I've been wondering about supercharging a xflow recently.
What did the bloke do to reduce the compression in the engine?
quote:
Originally posted by steve m
"of course, you know what would be good, a turbo pinto!! 500BHP possible!! "
but you would need a chassis, built like the titanic to hold it
quote:
Originally posted by Oddified
For me part of the reason for playing with a fun car, is the tinkering and playing about with ideas which to me is all part of the fun
There maybe a few reasons not to turbo a 1.3 xflow, but why not if it puts a smile on his face, good on him and respect
Ian
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
The 1.6L/1.8L/2.0L zetec (iron block) shares the same bolt pattern with a X flow/pinto.
The later zetecs (1.2L/1.4L) are not the same
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
A totally stock 2.0L zetec will make 175BHP, with cams 190BHP.
If you only made 178BHP with cams you tuned it wrong - FZ2002 cams are not that wild, so with proper tuning it will drive very near to a stock engine.
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
The key to it is proper tuning - you have an expensive ignition box with carbs, you would have been better using EFI with a cheap ECU such as megasquirt. Carbs are a waste of time, but if you must use carbs Dellortos are better for drivablity.
"Car now has a totally standard Blacktop with MBE ECU and Jenvey 45's. Set up by myself and gives 175 bhp @ 6800. Drives like a shopping car
and has averaged 31 mpg since fitted."
Yep, thats what we see on our blacktop engines, glad you have seen the light and got rid of the carbs!
http://baileyperformance.co.uk/?p=184
there is very little power difference between a silvertop and blacktop on jenveys, 5bhp.
mileage has little effect on power unless the engine has been abused, in fact we have seen smokers still make good power
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
lets go old skool!
Essex 3.0L next after the pinto?
quote:
Originally posted by steve m
Im interested!
please post pics, of the setup
Steve (1700 crossflow)
I'm in agreement with BT here - seems like a whole heap of effort and expense to get sod all power out of an anchient piece of hardware, and I can't really see any advantages. OBviously "because I can" is a valid point, but still not sure I understand the reasoning.
whilst i have to say on the face of it, a xflow with a wind pump is flogging the proverbial dead horse to some, when it comes to competing then things
take a different slant.
getting 140hp out of a xflow takes a huge amount of money, machoining etc whereas adding a light pressure turbo setup gives the power without the
bucks, and isnt an engine change so doesnt chuck you into sports libre automatically.
for 2013 i think the need to stay in original capacity class for sprints and hills has gone (havent got my copy to hand, but believe so), so we could
see more peeps adding turbos and blowers to cars rather than swapping engines. Back to the days of austin 7s with howling superchargers!
the other almost always overlooked area is weight and packaging. A xflow is dinky and looks lost even in a 7type engine bay. all modern stuff tends to
be ally blocked which are always bulkier than their iron equivalents and then they have a 'muffin top' cylinder head with eleventy valves in
it! whilst modern twin cams are fine in most 7types, a small hillclimber or similar is a different matter. The turbo and ancillaries can often be
packaged easier than the bulkier modern engine.
as for essexs, dont get me started... yuk
[Edited on 4/12/12 by CNHSS1]
quote:
Originally posted by CNHSS1
whilst i have to say on the face of it, a xflow with a wind pump is flogging the proverbial dead horse to some, when it comes to competing then things take a different slant.
getting 140hp out of a xflow takes a huge amount of money, machoining etc whereas adding a light pressure turbo setup gives the power without the bucks, and isnt an engine change so doesnt chuck you into sports libre automatically.
for 2013 i think the need to stay in original capacity class for sprints and hills has gone (havent got my copy to hand, but believe so), so we could see more peeps adding turbos and blowers to cars rather than swapping engines. Back to the days of austin 7s with howling superchargers!
the other almost always overlooked area is weight and packaging. A xflow is dinky and looks lost even in a 7type engine bay. all modern stuff tends to be ally blocked which are always bulkier than their iron equivalents and then they have a 'muffin top' cylinder head with eleventy valves in it! whilst modern twin cams are fine in most 7types, a small hillclimber or similar is a different matter. The turbo and ancillaries can often be packaged easier than the bulkier modern engine.
as for essexs, dont get me started... yuk
[Edited on 4/12/12 by CNHSS1]
yes the BB has always had a 1.4x for circuits and 1.7x capacity hike for speed events (sprints/hillclimbs) but it looks like the need to stay within capacity 'class' has been removed for 2013 speed events, so that whilst say a 1300 with a turbo would be over 2000cc now, it could still stay in Roadgoing or ModProd and not bung you in Sports Libre as was previously the case, just move from class 3A to 3C in modprod for instance
I still don't see it, the added mass for a turbo including manifolds and generally an intercooler too is in the region of 10-15kg, sure a turbo addition is a bit easier to position than a whole bulkier engine and maybe I'm just not appreciating the size difference but it seems relatively minimal.
quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
I'm in agreement with BT here - seems like a whole heap of effort and expense to get sod all power out of an anchient piece of hardware, and I can't really see any advantages. OBviously "because I can" is a valid point, but still not sure I understand the reasoning.
It's not because you can get more power more cheaply, it's just something that is nice to do.
No engine or gearbox changes
No chassis mods to suit
It's Bolt on power, when I turbo'd my blade engine I could have sold the package, stuck £££ on top and dropped in something more powerful,
instead chose to fiddle around relatively cheaply and derive the same power with what I had.
Run on optimax, not available 30 years ago, and away you go.
Vecta turbo is only £30 on eBay and its all transportable anyway so nothing lost if you decide to change the lump.
If I had been as capable when I was 20 as I am now I would have shoved a turbo on a few of my cars that's for sure.
quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
It's not because you can get more power more cheaply, it's just something that is nice to do.
No engine or gearbox changes
No chassis mods to suit
It's Bolt on power, when I turbo'd my blade engine I could have sold the package, stuck £££ on top and dropped in something more powerful, instead chose to fiddle around relatively cheaply and derive the same power with what I had.
Run on optimax, not available 30 years ago, and away you go.
Vecta turbo is only £30 on eBay and its all transportable anyway so nothing lost if you decide to change the lump.
If I had been as capable when I was 20 as I am now I would have shoved a turbo on a few of my cars that's for sure.