smart51
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| posted on 14/1/11 at 07:23 PM |
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The original poster said that there is no proof that God exists. There is, though, a significant body of circumstantial evidence. I call as a
witness Marcus Chown, best selling science writer until that Stephen Hawkins chap came along. For the record, Chown is a self confessed atheist. In
his book The Magic Furnace, Chown describes how atoms are formed in stars and in doing so, tells the story of how scientists discovered this. His
musings cover the origins of the universe and he notes how exquisitely balanced the universe is. Not just a little but the are dozens of factors
that, if just one were out by a tiny fraction of a percent, there would be no stars in the universe, or no complex chemicals that are essential to
life, or no heavy elements, or no elements at all. He states that there are only two conceivable conclusions. Firstly, that there must have been
some intelligence that designed the universe with the required precision that we could be here. Second is that there must be countless trillions of
universes, all formed at random. Almost all are totally void. For the record, he prefers the latter conclusion.
This is the latest understanding on the subject and both are equally well supported by the known facts and current hypotheses. Neither is proven nor
disproven. Given this, can you really say that your preferred hypothesis is the truth and the other is not?
Thus, it is entirely plausible that God exists and equally plausible that God does not exist. The courts offer a religious and a non-religious oath
so that both camps are accommodated. Is that really so bad?
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scootz
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| posted on 14/1/11 at 07:36 PM |
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The Original point is that 'hearsay is not permitted in a Scottish Criminal Court.
Until there is 'proof' one way or the other, then religion remains hearsay at best and fiction at worse.
Therefore my point stands - how can the same court accept a persons testimony based on a book of hearsay... their credibility has fallen at the first
hurdle by admitting they believe in hearsay / fiction (and the Courts credibility falls with it).
Not looking for a religious-row...
It's Evolution Baby!
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mcerd1
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| posted on 14/1/11 at 07:51 PM |
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for the record I'd count my self as agnostic (although I was christened in the kirk when I was a baby) and I don't have a problem with all
religons
e.g. I've no probem at with the way the Kirk [church of scotland] is run these days, its more or less democtatic and they are normaly very easy
going
but go back a few hundred years and even they were doing there own witch hunts....
in fact its not religon I've got a problem with, its organized religion - the source of quite alot of the wars in the last couple of thousand
years or more (although I admit it was often just used as an excuse)
the way I see their function in a community today is as a focal point for the big events in life (like birth, death, marrage.....) and to look out for
the more vulnerable people aswell as providing people to deal with those events - I just don't beleve that it would all fall apart if its
place was taken by something else without the religon
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mcerd1
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| posted on 14/1/11 at 07:53 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by scootz
The Original point is that 'hearsay is not permitted in a Scottish Criminal Court.
you also need corroborating evidence up here to prove it 
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Xtreme Kermit
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| posted on 14/1/11 at 08:12 PM |
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Whilst it is easy to blame religion for all the violence in the world, I have moved away from that position and toward the idea that men will find any
excuse to hurt fellow man.
It all about greed and power, not religion.
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interestedparty
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| posted on 14/1/11 at 08:17 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Marcus Chown
countless trillions of universes
Mr Chown hasn't grasped the meaning of universe. The Universe is everything. That's what it means, the whole lot.
As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,
I've got a little list-- I've got a little list
Of society offenders who might well be underground,
And who never would be missed-- who never would be missed!
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smart51
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| posted on 14/1/11 at 08:25 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by interestedparty
quote:
Originally posted by Marcus Chown
countless trillions of universes
Mr Chown hasn't grasped the meaning of universe.
Given the well founded standing of Mr Chown, forgive me if I pause before accepting your position.
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Ninehigh
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| posted on 14/1/11 at 09:16 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Xtreme Kermit
Whilst it is easy to blame religion for all the violence in the world, I have moved away from that position and toward the idea that men will find any
excuse to hurt fellow man.
It all about greed and power, not religion.
Ah but it's the few who stand there and wield their greed and power under the banner of religion that give the rest a bad name. You have to
understand that 95% (ish) of religious people are decent, non-violent, well meaning people. It's that 5% that are bombing, manipulating and
telling people that God wanted him to be in charge.
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martyn_16v
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| posted on 14/1/11 at 09:17 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by CaptainJosh
As I christian I don't enjoy the agressive comments towards our faith, but I do believe you have the right to believe what you want and
therefore to not believe what you want. Afterall its your choice.
That's all well and good, but for every sensible soul like yourself there's a nutter preaching hatred and violence toward anyone who
doesn't share his myopic world view. Until atheists actually start killing people for believing in fairy stories then I think they have cause to
feel a little bit superior.
I don't intentionally try to offend anyone who does believe in a god of any kind, it's just a difficult subject to tackle without doing so
(at least for someone as ineloquent as myself). It works both ways though, I'm generally quite offended by religious types who tend to infer
that I must be missing something in my life without faith in god.
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Badger_McLetcher
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| posted on 14/1/11 at 10:05 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by interestedparty
Mr Chown hasn't grasped the meaning of universe. The Universe is everything. That's what it means, the whole lot.
Alternate universes mate. Think of different rooms in the same house, each a universe, seperated by a wafer thin membrane. A bit like those Japanese
paper wall thingys. Except it's a house with infinite rooms and no doors. Oh yes, my grasp on physics is stunning 
As far as religion goes- keep it to yourself and it's problem solved.
If disfunction is a function, then I must be some kind of genius.
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interestedparty
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| posted on 14/1/11 at 10:24 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Badger_McLetcher
quote:
Originally posted by interestedparty
Mr Chown hasn't grasped the meaning of universe. The Universe is everything. That's what it means, the whole lot.
Alternate universes mate. Think of different rooms in the same house, each a universe, seperated by a wafer thin membrane. A bit like those Japanese
paper wall thingys. Except it's a house with infinite rooms and no doors. Oh yes, my grasp on physics is stunning
As far as religion goes- keep it to yourself and it's problem solved.
As soon as anyone puts an 's' on the end of 'universe', they are showing that they don't know what it means, or are
trying to change its meaning. Just what is it about 'everything' that people don't understand?
If people want to have more than one of whatever it is that they understand by "universe" then they ought to think up a different word for
it. How about "everything I can see from here", that would be better than "universes" which is meaningless.
As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,
I've got a little list-- I've got a little list
Of society offenders who might well be underground,
And who never would be missed-- who never would be missed!
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Badger_McLetcher
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| posted on 14/1/11 at 10:39 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by interestedparty
As soon as anyone puts an 's' on the end of 'universe', they are showing that they don't know what it means, or are
trying to change its meaning. Just what is it about 'everything' that people don't understand?
If people want to have more than one of whatever it is that they understand by "universe" then they ought to think up a different word for
it. How about "everything I can see from here", that would be better than "universes" which is meaningless.
Granted the term "Universe" means the area everything is contained in. And it still does since the other universes are not connected to
us in any way. Plus given time meanings of words and terms changes- this is natural as knowledge advances.
If disfunction is a function, then I must be some kind of genius.
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Hellfire
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| posted on 14/1/11 at 10:46 PM |
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To be pedantic..........
The word Universe can be used as both a singular and countable noun and therefore can be used in a plural form.
Scientists often speculate about parallel universes
Back to topic.............
Phil
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zilspeed
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| posted on 14/1/11 at 10:53 PM |
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Donald Rumsfeld.
There are known knowns.
These are things we know that we know.
There are known unknowns.
That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know.
But there are also unknown unknowns.
There are things we don't know we don't know.
Until such times as all we have are known knowns, anything is possible until it is verifiably impossible.
Which we will never completely achieve.
There will always be some unknown unknowns.
That being the case, anything will always be possible.
P.S. I quote Rumsfeld, not out of respect, but because of the infamy of the statement.
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gallons perminute
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| posted on 14/1/11 at 11:26 PM |
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Impressed Zil,
we had no quotes like that on our merry way to Englandshire.
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RazMan
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| posted on 14/1/11 at 11:40 PM |
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Regardless of your beliefs, I find it very hard to comprehend how so many religions have the same roots as their beginnings. They have each evolved in
their own, often parallel directions but now they seem so different in their policies, yet still claim to be the 'right' God.
We cannot deny that there are more wars and conflicts because of religion. Religion has effectively killed more people than anything else on the
planet. Most religions seem to attribute most global disasters on their God. Just look at the poverty in this world and the suffering caused in the
name of religion. So if there is a God, has he just got a mean streak or what?
p.s. I'm an Agnostic, thank God
[Edited on 14-1-11 by RazMan]
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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Ninehigh
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| posted on 14/1/11 at 11:42 PM |
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You know I thought that was Bush who said that, now I realise he'd have probably tripped over that so much he'd never have finished saying
it.
AND GOD WANTED HIM TO DO IT!
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keithice
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| posted on 14/1/11 at 11:45 PM |
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Captain Josh.. having lurked on this site for a good few years, I don't think for a moment that this thread is a personal attack on you... but
several undeniable facts have been stated... human beings are corruptable... they can also be misled.. mis-informed... lied to... flattered...
threatened... greedy... lazy... etc.etc. so the institiutional religons are all open to and been used for abuse, which is continuing today with Islam
a very high profile example and Yugoslavia and Northern Ireland two very recent uses of religon to legitimise violence... I, personally am agnostic...
I rather like the buddhist philosopy (don't hurt another living thing) though this did not stop japanese samurai from killing..... a lot...
taking christianity back to its roots and simplest values (the coptic churches of egypt and ethopia are certainly the earliest) takes a lot of ROMAN
catholic spin out of the equation...
as Douglas Adams once wrote, "two thousand years after a man was nailed to a tree for saying we should be nice to one another...."
probably the simplest explanation for the original christian message I know... keithice
Smile and wave boys.... Smile and wave....
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NeilP
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| posted on 14/1/11 at 11:48 PM |
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I'm with Atheism - Can't go wrong with a non-prophet organisation...
...I'll get my coat.
If you pay peanuts...
Mentale, yar? Yar, mentale!
Drive it like you stole it!
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keithice
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| posted on 14/1/11 at 11:54 PM |
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on a lighter note... I do believe in the spaghetti monster... and the lack of pirates is causing global warming...
Smile and wave boys.... Smile and wave....
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Chippy
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| posted on 14/1/11 at 11:58 PM |
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I find religion a bit like when kids have an invisible freind, which as it's a child I can understand. But for an adult to need this prop they
must be very insecure. My religion is very simple I "try" to treat people as I would have them treat me, and some/most of the time I
manage it, Cheers Ray
To make a car go faster, just add lightness. Colin Chapman - OR - fit a bigger engine. Chippy
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skodaman
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| posted on 15/1/11 at 12:19 AM |
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I remember being sent to the headmaster high school for something I wrote in English lessons. We were told to review a work of fiction so I chose the
bible. Can't remember all of it but I put stuff like,
For probably the best -selling work of fiction ever it appears to be a haphazard collection of stories thrown together from a pile of old tabloids.
Some of the stories in the second half are repeated and not very consistently at either.
The first chapter had me in stitches. Darwin conclusively proves it's totally wrong.
The bit with a long list of people living 700/900+ years has obviously lost something in the translation. It gets a bit sad and gruesome towards the
end but then you find he's not really dead. Must be where they got the plot for the return of Bobby Ewing in Dallas.
Less believable than Star Wars.
The RC church was a political stunt to unite the Roman Empire, has caused more deaths than Hitler and Stalin combined and held back
civilization/technology by at least 100 years.
If there is a god surely in this day and age it should be termed a superior being from outer space and not a very nice one at that.
Yes he wasn't very impressed. Humourless old f--t.
Skodaman
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Macbeast
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| posted on 15/1/11 at 12:48 AM |
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The current term is " Multiverse "and that is where quantum electrodynamics may be leading our thinking. But just because we coin a word
" Universe " to mean "everything" doesn't make it unquestionably true. My father used to say that he was taught that an
atom is the smallest indivisible particle of matter so anything that relied on splitting the atom was impossible, eg Hiroshima was a fake.
People are confusing God and religion. God didn't invent religion - we did. Hitler and Stalin killed millions without the need to use God as an
excuse. God isn't hanging adulterers in Iran - men are.
The OP seems to dislike affirming in court because people look at him funnily. Logically, in a sectarian age, shouldn't people find it odd if
he swore on a Bible or the Koran ? Swearing on a Bible is like Judges wearing wigs - it adds a bit of solemnity to the occasion and you don't
actually have to believe in God or the Judge's full head of hair to encourage you to tell the truth.
[Edited on 15/1/11 by Macbeast]
I'm addicted to brake fluid, but I can stop anytime.
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Ninehigh
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| posted on 15/1/11 at 02:04 AM |
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I'm just waiting for Wyld Stallyns to spread their word across the land and bring peace and harmony to us all.
Also, religious, aetheist or agnostic (which always reminds me of opticians...) you've got to know that God Gave Rock and Roll to You
I'm gonna have to watch them now
[Edited on 15/1/11 by Ninehigh]
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interestedparty
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| posted on 15/1/11 at 06:27 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire
To be pedantic..........
The word Universe can be used as both a singular and countable noun and therefore can be used in a plural form.
Scientists often speculate about parallel universes
Back to topic.............
Phil
So I expect they will be changing the definition of 'everything' as well. So that we will start hearing stuff like "well, when I
said everything, I didn't actually mean everything, I meant something." Or we could take it idea of changing the meaning of words even
further, how about "it's in the fridge" also meaning "It's in the cupboard", or BEC meaning a car with a car
engine in it.
As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,
I've got a little list-- I've got a little list
Of society offenders who might well be underground,
And who never would be missed-- who never would be missed!
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