Moorron
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 posted on 17/6/08 at 10:36 PM |
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Has the word Engineering lost its wealth?
ok my first moan on here but having had a bad year at work and seeing alot of peeps getting paid silly amounts im venting some wind.
The word Engineering was once as good as 'doctors', accountancy and other top name work classes. Do you regret becoming an engineer or
taking on such a role knowing now that its no longer seen to be a top end job?
I confess i dont cloass my self as an engineer (alltho my spelling sometimes matches one lol). I didnt get a Beng or Meng or any other degree. However
i take on roles at work that such qualifications demand such a DFMEA's and risk assesments. These are jobs that no one i talk to understand let
alone know the responsibilities attached to them.
Im fed up trying to solve problems that every other profession would just sweep under the carpet. Are you?
My friend gets paid £280 a day! and his job is easier than mine by a mile.
What im getting at, after seeing jobs which involve very little future thought being moved up the 'respect' level like the tanker job in
the news at the moment meaning they can demand loads of money and dont have to think about much.
Has engineering lost its meaning?
Is there still a break between and engineer and technician anymore?
ARGH!!!!
im so peeved that i take pride in my work knowing i have future proofed it, checked out every possibility of failure and set up systems to stop it
happening which means saving money everyone involved and then just get accused of being the one stopping things from being developed. I see sales
people lye, doctors just 'try this' and knowing they get paod loads more.
Does it get to you lot?
Rant over cheers
Sorry about my spelling, im an engineer and only work in numbers.
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james h
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| posted on 17/6/08 at 10:43 PM |
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I know what you mean. Lots of people have assumed that after I told them I did mechanical engineering at uni, that I was just someone learning to
tinker around with cars (which I obbiously do anyway  ) etc.
One person once actualy asked me 'but what does an engineer actually do?' Hmmm, that kind of annoyed me if that is the general
perception, or lack of, of the profession.
The situation should be far closer or on a par with Germany, the respect they have for engineers is (I have heard) almost unparalleled.
James
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owelly
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| posted on 17/6/08 at 10:50 PM |
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I'm an engineer. It says so on my Job description so I must be one. My occupation is an engineer when I'm getting insurance quotes and I
can hold my own in a room full of professors. I get paid an engineers wage. I'm an engineer.
However, I'm not an engineer and I don't profess to be one. I served my time as a mech fitter, got promoted up to leading hand and then
Industrial Technician. Then after a lot of hard graft (over several years), sat a promotions board and got the 'Engineers' post. Along the
way I also got a HNC in Eng.
Since then, my company got taken over, lost contacts, won contracts and through it all, I'm still sat in the same control room pressing the same
buttons but now, I have unskilled folks working alongside me with absolutely no formal qualifications. They are also employed as
'Engineers'!
So no. The word engineer is worth jack-sh1t.
[Edited on 17/6/08 by owelly]
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
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omega 24 v6
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| posted on 17/6/08 at 11:17 PM |
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quote:
im so peeved that i take pride in my work knowing i have future proofed it, checked out every possibility of failure and set up systems to stop it
happening which means saving money everyone involved and then just get accused of being the one stopping things from being developed. I see sales
people lye, doctors just 'try this' and knowing they get paod loads more.
DON'T JUST DON'T get me started AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHH
I know exactly what you mean. I was the same when asked what an engineer was. Again they thought it was a posh name for a mechanic type. I explained
that while a mechanic could sort a car then an engineer could make every component on a car (given the correct tooling) assemble it and sort it as
well.
But your right of course. I work with other Non skilled guys who rely on you to make/ complete the first of a batch of jobs. They then copy you as in
monkey see monkey do. BUT here's the rub they THINK they are doing the same job as you and should be getting paid the same. BUT when something
goes wrong or has a fault they have absolutely no idea where to start fault finding as they DO NOT understand a thing about the product or job they
are turning out. So they make the mistakes and you have to sort them.
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
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iank
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| posted on 17/6/08 at 11:35 PM |
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The word engineer is protected in some countries (Canada for example) in the same way as (medical) Doctor or Solicitor is here.
Unfortunately as it isn't protected here it's been devalued to nothing. The worst example I've heard is a toilet cleaner being
called a 'Sanitation Engineers'.
No point complaining about it though, it's far too late for that.
--
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Anonymous
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Liam
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| posted on 17/6/08 at 11:39 PM |
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quote:
I explained that while a mechanic could sort a car then an engineer could make every component on a car (given the correct tooling) assemble it
and sort it as well.
NOOO!!! That's still a fabricator or technician! The engineer designed the car!
It's true - the word engineer has been diluted and abused so much that it's gone from referring to an academic profession on a par with
medical doctors, lawyers, etc to refering to anyone who does anything remotely technical (using a screwdriver counts).
No disrespect at all to the guys who install my NTL box or fix my washing machine, but they are NOT engineers in the proper definition of the word.
What is so wrong with the traditional titles of fitter, technician etc etc? Won't be long until the aspirational bin-man labels himself a
refuse collection engineer (or are they already called that). It's rediculous that in this country a professional chartered engineer, who could
be a world expert in a highly technical field shares his job title with the guy installing his central heating boiler.
Again no disrespect to any skilled people - this isn't professional snobbery - but the muddying of the definition of what it is to be an
engineer does our country no good at all. What incentive is there for a school kid to pursue an engineering degree if they think it means
they'll end up fixing tellies? It also seems to be reflected in the wage that a graduate engineer can demand in this country which makes me
wonder why i went to uni for four years!
Grrrrrr
Liam
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Liam
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| posted on 17/6/08 at 11:41 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by iankThe worst example I've heard is a toilet cleaner being called a 'Sanitation Engineers'.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Please tell me that isn't true!! Actually dont bother cos i won't believe you - of course it's true
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liam.mccaffrey
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| posted on 18/6/08 at 04:33 AM |
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I graduated from a british uni with a mech eng degree and went on to get quite a very responsible and difficult job under the job description
engineer.
I agree that to the general public engineer means absolutely jack sh1t. a friend of mine once asked what i wanted to do when i left school, I told
him I wanted to be an electrical engineer (at the time, I'm a mechy now). He replied by saying "I'll know who to call when my
washing machine breaks".
The worst thing was he wasn't trying to insult me, he was serious. BTW he is a solicitor now.
I now work in the US as a project manager on large storage tank terminal contruction and when I tell people I am an engineer they are often surprised
and very impressed. They value these type of skills a lot more over here and it makes me feel all the hard work was worth it. they pay a lot better
here too.
[Edited on 18/6/08 by liam.mccaffrey]
Build Blog
Build Photo Album
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bimbleuk
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| posted on 18/6/08 at 07:14 AM |
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I was doing Civil engineering at Poly but decided to switch to computers as there was little respect for Civil Engineers in this country so you
ideally had to go abroad to be appreciated. My bro stuck it out for a few years but became stressed from long site hours and pressure from above
constantly so he switched careers eventually. My brother in law however works for a Japanese company and is often abroad but gets very well treated
and has a very good salary.
I became a "PC Engineer" but my job has fek all to do with designing PC/Software systems but is fairly stress free and well paid. I could
earn quite a bit more if I contracted but again I like my easy life 
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 18/6/08 at 07:29 AM |
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If you think engineers don’t get the respect they deserve try being a bus driver - in charge of the safety of as many folk as a medium sized airliner
in a much more dangerous environment, working flat out for 8hrs a day doing crazy shifts and then getting treated like third grade moron who just
deserves only to get spat on (last guy who tried that with me got a fist in the face). Many folk in offices and the like forget just how hard some
work for their messily pennies.
oh course currently I'm sitting in a office getting paid 3 times as much surfing the net but things are quiet lately, yip I do miss the busses
[Edited on 18/6/08 by Mr Whippy]
Fame is when your old car is plastered all over the internet
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 18/6/08 at 08:01 AM |
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It's highly rated in Germany too - 'Herr Engineer' is as common as 'Herr Doctor', and so on. (Obviously spelt
differently! )
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DavidW
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| posted on 18/6/08 at 08:13 AM |
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Definately de-valued.
I studied Mech Eng and uni and then got a job doing really technical hard stuff. The Engineers were seen as somwhere below the sales guys in the
pecking order.
I've had lots of requests to mend garage doors and washing machines.
Anyway, I moved industries and now work as a Project Manager in in Construction. I work alongside other people with barely any useful qualifications
and we all seem to get much more respect and probably money than the Engineers we manage.
Being a Engineer in Germany was a diffrent matter, I just didnlt want to go and live over there.
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asn163
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| posted on 18/6/08 at 08:31 AM |
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I have to agree with the sentiments of the above.
A few years ago, I think it was the IMechE, did a poll of the general public on who they thought was an Engineer. I believe that the most popular
choice was "Kevin Webster" the spanner monkey from Coronation street.
Simon
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Syd Bridge
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| posted on 18/6/08 at 08:37 AM |
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As many realise on here, I'm a properly qualified engineer.
My wife works in the NHS, and some of the stories about the 'consultants' would make a good book. I was talking to one, and when I told
him what I did, he laughed. He makes a mistake, he kills one person. An engineer makes a mistake, he can kill hundreds!
I pointed out that the doctor wouldn't be able to do his job, without the engineers who designed all of his theatre equipment, diagnostic
equipment and electronics, and his car and washing machine,which quietened him down somewhat. He had no reply.
My second son graduated with his 2/2 Civil Engineering degree last year. Couldn't get a job as a tea boy here. Best offer was £18k, and he had
to move to the midlands. He now is working in Queensland, has just been moved into the position of Shire Engineer in the north, gets the equivalent of
over £35K/year, a new Toyota 4x4(twin turbo V6 diesel), and a spanking new house to live in. He's also in charge of an area bigger then the UK!
At the age of 23! (And he's paying way less tax than here.)
So yes, it is time the UK valued its engineers properly, before they all end up overseas, where their education is properly valued.
Cheers,
Syd.
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mcerd1
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| posted on 18/6/08 at 10:18 AM |
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I don't know if I call myself an engineer to a real engineer - but I suppose I am one
I did Mech eng hons at Uni (got a third), then went to a small local company (steel fabricator in a small specialised industry) as a CAD technician,
basically I did the drafting work for the engineer who designed the structures
and slowly I started doing more of the work until I could nearly do it all myself - then after 9 months the other engineer quit (suddenly) and I had
to learn the rest fast
4 years on I've learnt enough about structural steelwork to do my job (but I can't help feeling like I'm missing allot of background
info) and I've trained up 3 other people (none of which has stayed - all but 1 went abroad)
I still don't like calling myself an engineer, but I sometimes use "Structural Design Engineer" as a job description, just to avoid
the assumption that I fix washing machines
my biggest complaint is the fact that most managers seem to think they don't really need engineers, or if they do its just a necessary evil
and this is in an industry where nearly everything is a 1 off design to suit the site (they have tried standard designs - the either don't work
or cost a fortune)
but still all I get is "do you really need to design it - its the same as at the last site, the only is its a bit higher, wider, longer and the
thing on the top is a bit bigger and heavier, and the legs can't go there anymore - but it will be the same won't it"
I think part of the problem is that there are so many types of engineer, and that confuses allot of people - I nicked this from the imeche site:
quote:
[our] Members work in research, design, development, manufacturing, installation, commissioning, contracting, consulting and teaching, in
fields as diverse as lubrication, satellite launching, surgical implants and in power stations
I don't think that 'engineer' should be limited to just people with a degree, plenty of well known engineers started as apprentices
and never had any formal qualifications
some of the best lecturers at Uni only had a HND which they got after starting as an apprentice
(for those that don't know) chartered engineer is a title that is protected by the institutions that award the status, they also limit the
numbers - for most you now need an accredited MEng + several years of documented industry experience (most also offer what is basically and entrance
exam / thesis instead)
BAE run programs for there apprentices - some stay in the workshop and get trained up in varying levels of skilled work, some get the chance to get
and HNC / HND, then degree, masters, chartered - it takes a while but they should end up with a good spread of skills and 1st hand practical knowledge
throughout
as far as I know there engineers get some respect in the company (at least the ones up here I've met)
there is another part to the problem - many of the jobs which involve skilled labour, call them engineers because 'technician' has become
de-valued by people trying to make 'bin man' (or woman) sound more interesting, i.e. 'refuse disposal technician'
[Edited on 18/6/08 by mcerd1]
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Alan B
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| posted on 18/6/08 at 11:11 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by liam.mccaffrey
I graduated from a british uni with a mech eng degree.....................I now work in the US as a project manager on large storage tank terminal
contruction and when I tell people I am an engineer they are often surprised and very impressed. They value these type of skills a lot more over
here and it makes me feel all the hard work was worth it. they pay a lot better here too.....
Yep, that pretty much sums up my experience too.....you definitely get a lot more respect (and generally money) over here by comparison.......
It almost goes too far in some respects...I'm a mechanical design engineer, I've designed all sorts of custom machinery.... got my BSc
from the UK, but I could not have the word engineer on my occupational license (needed to work for myself) without having the US equivalent of C.Eng
qualifcation (P.E.)...yet every employed position I've held over here has had engineer in the job title.
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Alan B
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| posted on 18/6/08 at 11:18 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mcerd1
......my biggest complaint is the fact that most managers seem to think they don't really need engineers, or if they do its just a necessary
evil
and this is in an industry where nearly everything is a 1 off design to suit the site (they have tried standard designs - the either don't work
or cost a fortune)
but still all I get is "do you really need to design it - its the same as at the last site, the only is its a bit higher, wider, longer and the
thing on the top is a bit bigger and heavier, and the legs can't go there anymore - but it will be the same won't it"
....
This could easily be a scenario from my field too...all the thing they say it "only" needs are what engineering is about....
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birt
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| posted on 18/6/08 at 12:05 PM |
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Pah! You Engineers spend all day clicking buttons in some software that does all the hard work for you. Type some numbers into Excel, copy and paste
a few graphs into PowerPoint and your day's work is done. My mum could do that.
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Moorron
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| posted on 18/6/08 at 12:14 PM |
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Nice to know i am not the only one then. My Title is ‘Product Designer’ which I am fine with, others in the office are Engineers (again i am fine with
this) as they have a degree or two. But I do the same work as them or even more as I am the longest serving member here and they are always asking me
questions so they can do their tasks. The gaffa will only pay the right amount for the job title meaning I am paid less for the same work.
I agree every level of qualification is needed. There’s no point having one type without the other as nothing would get done, all I am saying is how
many times do you see a problem and then someone trying to solve it by hit and miss or just ignoring it and replacing it? I see it everywhere and it
does directly effect me. I don’t even bother with the doctors anymore, the last time I went with a knee problem he asked me when does it hurt, I said
when I kneel down and he told me to kneel down less or not at all! Is that it? To me he didn’t even want to try and help, thought I was there for a
sick note and waved me on. Yet he gets a £40K+ job and is regarded as a god by the public.
Its nice to know that in some other countries engineering is still regarded as a professional’s job and not just a nice title. But I think it isn’t
salvageable here anymore.
I wander if I attended a health course I could call myself a doctor?
What a load of pants.
Sorry about my spelling, im an engineer and only work in numbers.
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johhny5
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| posted on 18/6/08 at 12:18 PM |
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Hi I am a engineer and proud of it.
I conpleted an indenured apprenticeship and also completed a HND in Mechanical Engineering.
My company values enginners , many of us are now registered as Incorporated Enginneers with the Engineering Council.
However you need a Masteres degree to become chartered, engineering is the only field with this requirement.
I belive that to be a Chartered Accountant you dont need to have a Masters, and that surely aint right.
Once again Incorporated Engineer and proud of it
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birt
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| posted on 18/6/08 at 12:36 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by johhny5
However you need a Masteres degree to become chartered, engineering is the only field with this requirement.
Don't you need a Doctorate to become a doctor?
Surely this is the sort of thing that is required to protect the integrity of the word 'Engineer'? A Masters degree may not necessarily
equal a good engineer but it goes a long way to ensuring that they had a solid initial training/introduction to their profession.
[Edited on 18/6/08 by birt]
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chrsgrain
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| posted on 18/6/08 at 12:51 PM |
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Anyone can call themselves a doctor.... no rules against that at all (look at 'Dr' Gillian McKeith, who is neither a medical doctor or a
researcher with a PhD) - a registered medical practitioner is the legal definition.. and don't worry - our managers think that they don't
need us either... I couldn't do an engineers job (in fact I couldn't do pretty much any job except mine) and wouldn't presume so -
so please don't presume you can do ours 
I think the lack of respect for engineering / lawyering / teaching / policing / doctoring etc etc is down to a generalised wish that everyone was the
same, there was no such thing as excellence, and everything is pretty easy.... my job isn't, and most people I know don't have easy jobs
either.... had some TIG done the other day, and the guy was a genius - much respect there....
Chris
Declaration of interest - Registered medical practitioner 4526322 and PhD student
[Edited on 18/6/08 by chrsgrain]
Spoing! - the sound of an irony meter breaking...
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Peteff
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| posted on 18/6/08 at 01:05 PM |
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I've cut myself a few times, can I be a surgeon please . I design and make stuff all the time but it never gets out of the shed usually and I
wouldn't claim to be an inventor or an engineer.
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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D Beddows
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| posted on 18/6/08 at 01:08 PM |
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quote:
quote:Originally posted by mcerd1
......my biggest complaint is the fact that most managers seem to think they don't really need engineers, or if they do its just a necessary
evil
and this is in an industry where nearly everything is a 1 off design to suit the site (they have tried standard designs - the either don't
work or cost a fortune)
but still all I get is "do you really need to design it - its the same as at the last site, the only is its a bit higher, wider, longer and
the thing on the top is a bit bigger and heavier, and the legs can't go there anymore - but it will be the same won't it" ....
This could easily be a scenario from my field too...all the thing they say it "only" needs are what engineering is about....
Not exactly my experience of dealing with structural engineers 
But to be serious when I graduated and was looking for an engineering job it came down to:- a quite interesting one designing truck exhausts with CFD,
which is pretty technical proper engineering stuff, for which they were going to pay me £17k a year or a job as a CAD monkey (which really required
minimal technical knowledge of anything but AutoCad) for a shopfitter which was 5K more a year......... 6 years on and I'm an Architectural
Technologist, which does require a fair amount of technical input and I earn fairly decent money doing it but even so, in a couple of companies
I've worked for the Quantity Surveyors (which is basically cutting and pasting numbers into spreadsheets) have been taking home a couple of
grand a week - which is huge amount more than I ever have !
One of the big problems I think is that people vastly undervalue engineers because they think that engineering is easy ( you see it quite a lot on
here it has to be said ) and that computers do it all. The logic then goes that if you can use word and excel then FEA/CFD etc etc should be fairly
straightforward as well and base the value of the engineer on that - conveniently forgetting about all the background knowledge and experience
required to get usable results out of a computer. As Moorron said people don't (usualy!!) think they're a doctor if they've been on
a first aid course - so why do they think they're an engineer if they've read a couple of Haynes books, several wikipedia entries and
downloaded a hooky copy of CosmosWorks?
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Peteff
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| posted on 18/6/08 at 01:13 PM |
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My mate is an Architect Technician and he hates structural engineers almost as much as QS He's trying to get retirement as he is fed up of
the BS he now has to put up with from these two groups.
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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