Hello all,

Today is the day i have finally had enough balls to put my money where my mouth is... I've put down my deposit for a Vortex build, with a little twist.

This is going to be my 1st build and i have very minimal mechanical skills so this is going to be a steep learning curve. Ive gone for the MNR Vortex Mazda kit but instead of the MX-5 i wanted to use the Nissan 200sx S13 with a 1.8 turbo charged engine.

There are a number of reason i chose the s13.
Its the same cc as the MX-5 so shouldn't take much more room in the bay?, both 1.8 etc.
Its already turbocharged so no need for expensive modding or ecu upgrades later on in its life.
The engine/gearbox is actually lighter than the MX-5 set up without a turbo!.
Power can up increased to a safe 290bhp on std internals compared to a max of 225bhp with the turbo'ed MX-5.

Negative points? Cant really think of any other than the extra cost involved in modifying the chassis to take the running gear but this is where the MNR team come in. They will hopfully help me in sorting all that "stuff" out .

Im hoping on using all of the s13 running gear and to go for a age related plate. Budget wise im looking at spending around 8k but this is already looking tight!. The 8k will include the donor, kit, extra parts during build and IVA and tax etc.

Weight wise im guessing it shouldn't be over 650kg as im going for full cage as well.

My aim is to end up with around 400bhp/ton in a well set up car for corner speed and straight line kick...

Here's some pics of my donor










[Edited on 29/11/11 by 786evo8]

Stumbled at the 1st hurdle.... How do you get pics on here?

that should be good, i had a sr20det powered car and you will love the turbo power

quote:

---

Originally posted by 786evo8
Stumbled at the 1st hurdle.... How do you get pics on here?

---

the sr20 engine is very very very very tall, stick to the ca18 they are a good engine and much cheaper

Finally!

I was originally going for a RB25det as i had a Skyline R33 but it would have been overkill. Images of me wheel spinning everywhere kept on popping into my head.

The SR20det was my 2nd choice but as Tom said it is a tall engine and fitting it would be tricky. The CA18 seems to tick all the boxes...

RK, did you have a running car before moving it to the kit? That's what im doing so i cant see where i would have any problems as long as i keep the loom the same and just get rid of the extra stuff like ABS and AC etc...?

Im expected a simple install and as said before the parts seem cheaper to upgrade as and when needed...

im going to keep this as my projects thread so keep coming back and offering advice, it would be appreciated


[Edited on 29/11/11 by 786evo8]

RK way to put a downer on his project

Dont listen to him and do your project the way you want to.
It will prob cost a little more than going down the tried and tested route but if everybody did the same the whole world would be boring.

One thing i would suggest is that you spend some of your money on a good intercooler and radiator set up and a very good electric fan

edit: and spend some good money on some good tyres, as i could spin up my 275 width medium compound tyres in the dry with 2 up, i was running 321bhp though and the sr20 is a torque monster

but you will love the turbo power because you can pootle along in 4 doing 30mph on light throttle with no problem and then drop it into second and floor it and you end up having great drivability and the best of everything and the turbo does keep the exhaust noise down for iva and trackdays

[Edited on 29/11/11 by tomgregory2000]

There are a few photos in my archive of my install, have a look and ask any questions if you want

I built mine using the sr20det,box diff etc out of my old s14a.No real problems getting it to run on the original ecu.(just a shed load of wires to trace.) Only stumbling block might be the NATS if that doesn't play ball,but as said it gave me no issues.
Good luck,you'll love it,turbo power and nissan reliability,and enough torque to make it a pleasure to drive in traffic.

Chris

Ps mine came in at under £7k sva'd.that said anything i could do myself,beg or steal was done myself,bedded or stolen!I guess you could easily double that price if you have to pay someone to make all the one off parts,or indeed even pay for materials.
That said there's no expensive RR setups etc that people often forget to admit to etc after the car was built.

[Edited on 29/11/11 by StrikerChris]

RK, i remember reading your posts about not being able to start the car. I searched the CA18 and your name came up a few times in the results. It did put me off the CA thinking it might be over my level of experience in trying to install one but now that i have the car ive looked at the wiring and it doesn't look any more complex than the MX-5. I might be back here in a few months/years eating my own words but for now im keeping a positive open mind towards this build . In your posts you didnt get much feedback or help regarding the porblems you were having and i think you should have asked the questions on 200sx fourms like sxoc.com etc, They have a wealth of knowledge on there.

Tom, i was interstered in buying your car when you had it up for sale but i kept on thinking the whole point of a kit car is to build it yourself. So im going to give it a go and if i fail then i can always buy one

Chris, the s13 doesn't have NATS and that's another reason why i chose it. I have never welded so am putting all of that stress onto Marc and the rest of the MNR team. They seem to know what they're doing so i'll leave it to them.

Thanks for all the comments and input guys

I personally tend to ignore the people who're willing to stick their oar in without knowing what was at fault. If they can lay down the fact that this wont work with that and therefore the cost is X, fine, but if it's just because they couldn't make it work it's not really worth worrying about. Almost no-one had megasquirted a 3S-GTE when I started mine, was told from all angles it was a bad idea, impossible to hook up, too expensive - balls, it was easy.

Good luck, watch out for the usual big end/main bearing failures that are common on that engine at high powers, but I used to know someone who owned one and in the tin top it was a great fun car to drive, I can see it being twice the fun in a kit. Crack on, if there's issues the CA18 is a really really well supported engine/ECU combination, someone will be able to help you sus it out. Check out www.sxoc.com for specific help if you need it, they've been stripping, modding and swapping 200SX engines for years over there.

[Edited on 29/11/11 by coyoteboy]

Hi mate, was that you who came into the MNR workshop on sat morning??

CA18DETs a cracking little engine and box combo, loads of aftermarket goodies and in a luke warm state of tune you will see 250-275hp all day long. it has its foibles, show me an engine that doesnt, but as has been said forums like the sxoc.com has more info than you could shake a stick at and all your questions will be answered, plus others you havent thought of
SR20 is no better or worse, suffers from other issues, but again easy to sort/avoid.

if going for SR20 route, avoid FWD or GTi-R 4wd version as it doesnt bolt up to rwd boxes (s13 and s14 versions interchangeable with swapping bellhousings but differing ratios)

any Qs ask away

ive built them, built them right, and raced them hard. My experience sounds to be opposite to yours RK.

im not a bullshitter either BTW

I think its a brilliant engine too. But you need a well looked after engine. I think the trouble is the engines get abused and are very willing to rev passed the redline.
Ben

Go for it mate. You build what you want to build. Just check the engine height. You will find pics in the forum showing sump clearances of the MX5, bearing in mind it virtually touches the bonnet at the top. Also is your engine intended to be at slant? The engine bay is very tight. What diff are you using? The 1.6 option which the MNR chassis uses wont take that kind of power. The 1.8 will, but it will need modifying to fit.
I love the idea you are going with, but weigh up the cost over running a 1600mx5 turbo versus your setup. 200bhp in a Vortx is mental enough. It is damned expensive enough to do the build I did, without changing too much. Also consider the heat you're going to produce. It's hard enough keeping this thing cool. If you want a spin in mine with a standard mx5 turbo setup, let me know

Cheers,

Lee

I'd like to chime in on this - you mentioned you want to use S13 running gear! If all the components are available for a Mx-5 donor, why not go for a Mx-5 based build, and just use your own engine and gearbox. Yes you'll have to get a propshaft made, but I'm pretty certain that's the case anyway..

I just see trying to adapt the S13 running gear taking up all of your time for no actual benefit. Cost wise you shouldn't be any worse off if you sell off the S13 bits to drifters - they're smashing things all the time!


As for the CA18DET engine, it's a brilliant choice - I've had a bit of experience with these and they are extremely tunable and relatively durable. I reckon an SR20 would be a better choice, but the cost of an SR20 engine/gearbox IIRC is around 3x that what you'd pay for a CA18DET package (or even complete vehicle.

quote:

---

he said it was his first build. i find knowledgable people underestimate what these things take. of course it can be done but how many tears do you want to shed while you learn? anyhow i wish him good luck!

---

I also went a different route to the norm and would recommend it. I agree that using the mx5 running gear would be cheaper if the diff has decent ratio and it can take the power.
I went your route But used Honda s2000 engine,box,diff,steering wheel,stalks,column, modded prop and drive shafts. Expensive items were wheels+ tyres, digital dash and upgrade ecu. Apart from that it's on a par with most builds I think.

[Edited on 30/11/11 by daniel mason]

If you end up using MX-5 bits, just remember that the Diff may be your power limiter...the 1.8L LSD tends to have issues above 300 wHP.

*I'm at 188WHP w/ my 1.8L turbo...for lower speeds, it's plenty quick; but after doing a few track days, I'm starting to want a bit more power for the top speed; looks like I'm Aero/drag limited to ~135 MPH (217 KPH).

I bet your 188 whp is more than I get from mine. And I bet it cost you far less. Lol

[Edited on 2/12/11 by daniel mason]

Nissan power all the way it's the future

ps i have the sr20det engine and box from a year 2000 s14a

I see some familiar names in this thread I'm totally new to this site and the whole process of choosing/building a kit.
I'm very keen to follow this build, when my S13 chassis is beyond help I intend to drop the CA18DET and gearbox (and whatever else I can keep) into a kit of some description.

I'm keen to help this build in any way that I can, I know a fair bit about the S13 and CA18DET etc.

I think the CA18DET is still a little tall for a kit car, modified sump and oil heater/cooler removal kits would probably be necessary.

Oil return and heat build-up towards the back of the block are the biggest problems IMO.

Would like to hear more details of what bits you are using and what you are unsure of, if anything?

First: it isn't too tall. The only tall bit is the intake plenum. Unfortunately, there are very few aftermarket ones to buy, unlike for the SR20.

Second: It is a great transmission; at least it is for me so far.

Third: There are a ton of things you can do to increase the HP, without opening up the engine: bigger injectors, turbo, throttle body, get rid of the MAF (I did) etc. Soon, you will have to watch your diff, because it will be getting huge power into it before you know it. It is apparently cheaper than a lot of engines this way.

Finally, I wouldn't do it again, simply because it has ended up costing me a fortune in a new ECU, tuning etc. It would have been nice to use something known better (like the SR20DET), and all I was trying to say earlier is that there is an easier life to live, when it comes to powering a seven. I'm not in England, and life is a lot harder here when it comes to Locosts and kit cars in general.

Yes, there aren't easy/cheap inlet manifold options, CPC in Australia did make some really good ones for the CA18DET a few years ago, occasionally one comes up for sale in the UK and usually at very reasonable price.
The aluminium fatigues near the welds though... the standard manifold and inlet plenum are fine for very big power, just not ideal for size.
Tuning of the CA18DET is well proven here in the UK and can be done very effectively without spending a huge amount of money and without needing to make many alterations to the general system set-up. Nissan 300ZX Z32 MAF sensor, larger (RB26DETT) injectors and a chip from Horsham Developments (www.h-dev.co.uk) will support 300bhp and various easy-to-fit turbos over here, T25 and T28 styles. A bit more money on a custom map is very worthwhile too.
The biggest hurdle will be heat management... or fitting a big enough intercooler!

[Edited on 2/1/12 by ChrisB200SX]

I am sorry, I must continue: Heat is not a problem for me. I have a double core Honda Civic Racing rad, with a push fan, and a small stock intercooler, mounted behind the rad (not a great spot but that's where it ended up). As long as the nosecone is on, the airflow is fine and temps are all normal, even on very hot days. I am sure the nosecone cutout (CSR style) helps everything.

That is good news

What sort of power is the engine producing?

Although I did not witness it, I was told 180 at the wheels, with a conservative tune. I think that's rather low, but don't need more really.

Not a lot of power then (although I'm sure it's plenty in your kit ).
Standard turbo and not many modifications then?
The standard engine and turbo can support upto 250bhp.
Just needs less restrictive breathing, efficient intercooler, 16psi boost, and a chipped ECU from www.h-dev.co.uk
http://www.h-dev.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=5029&osCsid=3ce1f2d6e25365973af3859c14027578

It has AEM ECU, with AEM CAS, no MAF, standard turbo (15" boost (1 bar), max for the sensor I have), standard TB, 2 1/2" exhaust, with an MK silencer. No idea why it isn't more but I don't need it as I said.

[Edited on 5/1/12 by RK]

quote:

---

Originally posted by DRC INDY 7
Nissan power all the way it's the future

ps i have the sr20det engine and box from a year 2000 s14a

---

How much for the s14a ecu set up

Well ,

weve nearly finished our haynes roadster with CA18DET power

It was the best choice for me , cheap easy 200bhp and easily upgraded when i want more power

Its all running standard ecu , my mate wired it up, apparently ,you only need about 4 wires to get it running.

We were going to use the nissan drivetrain but decided it was just easier to use the ford stuff ie hubs, brakes and rear diff.

Ive taken it out for a test run , its quick!

Heres my photo album

if anyone wants any info about installation just ask


https://picasaweb.google.com/108492714415649762152/HaynesRoadsterNissanTurboPower?authuser=0&feat=directlink

quote:

---

Originally posted by DRC INDY 7
How much for the s14a ecu set up

---

RK, what about EGT temps?
It's probably the intercooler and partly the exhaust holding the power back, it's the "stock" intercooler that worries me, wouldn't want you to melt your engine!

vtecmike, what were the modifications to the standard Haynes Roadster, any to make the engine and gearbox fit?
Why left hand drive? Steering rack issues?
Have you got an oil pressure guage?
Is the gearstick in a good place?
Looks like some really good work from the photos!
Still not sure about replacement bottom pulleys, harmonic damping should be an issue but I've heard there is experience to the contrary. Better to save weight (~7kg) on the flywheel

Because nobody in my vicinity knows anything about putting these engines in our cars, I have no idea about EGT's. I have not hooked my AEM to a computer to check. Mine never ran properly til I hired somebody (a proper mechanic) 200 kms away, to install the AEM and subsequent rolling road session. He has built 3 of these cars, all with SR20's (he's into drifting), but I have never felt confident I have been getting the entire story regarding mine. I was talked into this engine (original choice was a 22RE Toyota).

It has been an engine money pit. Would be nice to get the straight goods from people on it but that's not going to happen as long as I'm in Canada and you lot are in England.

[Edited on 6/1/12 by RK]

Chris

if you have trouble with gearlever position, use a mk2 Silvia gearbox (same code as s13 box actually) but its 50mm shorter (needs longer propshaft though) but the gearlever is 65mm further forward than the s13 box.

ChrisB200SX

To answer a coupe of your questions,

The chassis didnt need any mods apart from engine and gearbox mounts.The gearstick sits perfect, thats what we based the engine position on.
The prop is a cut down version from the nissan which is then fitted up to the ford sierra diff.

Ive heard lots of stories about the front aly pullies whether or not its a good idea , i had them on my honda h22A lump with a lightened flywheel , it just luved to rev!

Ive fitted a lightened flywheel to the nissan too, its the best mod you can do to any engine , responsive , revs quicker , its like adding 20bhp,
first mod i do to any engine now.

thanks mike

The guys on SXOC are really helpful and my SR20DET transplant went much smoother thanks to their help. Another help was Jez at Horsham Developments who mapped mine and solved a couple of wiring mysteries.

As for the alloy pulley only possible downside is cooling as the waterpump turns slower as they are underdrive items normally. I have a chuffing great intercooler in front of an old 1960's rad and it is marginal at cooling hence getting a new alloy one built for me by GR Motorsport (should be ready in a couple of weeks).

Link to my Alfa Scuderia "non originale" build

[Edited on 6/1/12 by jimgiblett]

quote:

---

Originally posted by CNHSS1
Chris

if you have trouble with gearlever position, use a mk2 Silvia gearbox (same code as s13 box actually) but its 50mm shorter (needs longer propshaft though) but the gearlever is 65mm further forward than the s13 box.

---

Gikens overkill in a plastic fag packet even with 350brake, but essential when dragging round a lard arse 1300kg Datsun around it

with 300bhp and 10" wide hillclimb slicks i havent broken s12/13 or 14 boxes with power although have bent and snapped a couple of selector forks, but thats just slamming the change through too quick with a paddle clutch (read: stamping on clutch pedal lol).

quote:

---

Originally posted by jimgiblett

Link to my Alfa Scuderia "non originale" build

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CNHSS1
Gikens overkill in a plastic fag packet even with 350brake, but essential when dragging round a lard arse 1300kg Datsun around it

with 300bhp and 10" wide hillclimb slicks i havent broken s12/13 or 14 boxes with power although have bent and snapped a couple of selector forks, but thats just slamming the change through too quick with a paddle clutch (read: stamping on clutch pedal lol).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by tul214

quote:

---

Originally posted by jimgiblett

Link to my Alfa Scuderia "non originale" build

---

Jim, just read your Alfa build...that is a beautiful car

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChrisB200SX

quote:

---

Originally posted by CNHSS1
Gikens overkill in a plastic fag packet even with 350brake, but essential when dragging round a lard arse 1300kg Datsun around it

with 300bhp and 10" wide hillclimb slicks i havent broken s12/13 or 14 boxes with power although have bent and snapped a couple of selector forks, but thats just slamming the change through too quick with a paddle clutch (read: stamping on clutch pedal lol).

---

1300kg with 2 passengers!
Maybe, but the ratios are better than stock
Do lower radius wheels reduce or increase the stress on the box, guess it reduces it as does the lower weight?

I think I'd like to put the engine and box in a Fury or something with a windscreen and roof of some description, although the Stylus RT looks lovely!

---

my mates fully road legal scimitar sabre Mk2 Turbo with a fully forged CA18DET on emerald ecu, big trubo, lsd, full cage, Elise seats, heater, hardtop, leccy windows is for sale. Drives like a pussy cat but has 368hp on tap when you stand on the loud pedal
galv chassis, GRP body so no rust either. I reckon £5k-6k would get it


scroll down on link about 5 cars

http://www.sporting-reliants.com/ModifiedMotors.htm

http://www.sporting-reliants.com/images/ModifiedMotors/StewB_5.jpg
[Edited on 9/1/12 by CNHSS1]

[Edited on 9/1/12 by CNHSS1]

[Edited on 9/1/12 by CNHSS1]

Nice, looks like a bargain and the engine should take more power. Ti Prop?! Surprising how much room there is and how far back the engine sits!
Shame I don't really like the look of them

The Fury has bonnet options, not sure I like them though...

Just sticking my awe in here.what engines in a pulsar gtir.looks similar to my sr20det but is running a dizzy cap?my mate just bought it and took it to the rollers to check its not running lean as its set to 16psi.made 340whp,can't wait for it to spit its box out so I can step in and get some go faster bits!

It's an SR20DET but not directly interchangeable with the RWD version, turbo is useable, some bits can be used, others are tricky to swap over.

Thought it was just the distributed made me think it might be an 1800!the lad selling it said its got a t28r so that's what I have my eye on,and a fancy boost controller.not that I want my mates car to go tits up.(much)

The Pulsar GTi-R only came with an SR20DET.
With that power and 4WD, it shouldn't take long to break the gearbox, they have a habit of eating 'boxes

The turbo is slightly different to the RWD version and supports a little more power, not much more though really, think it's a straight swap, might need to rotate the core though.

T28R (actually GT28R) is a ball bearing turbo and I'd recommend it, not the same as the standard 200SX or Pulsar turbo unit though. Make sure it's a Garrett or other reputable manufacturer or it may not last long

[Edited on 9/1/12 by ChrisB200SX]

Does look like mine and is Garrett but probably would need rotating,room is an issue in the Striker,so ill wait for the inevitable phonecall.did the clutch in his last one,never again!or maybe just swap my turb for his when hes back on the rig,he'll never notice!

Yeah, rotate the core and you won't be able to tell the difference, straight swap then
It shouldn't even take an extra millimetre, only real differences are internal, and maybe the bolt-on compressor inlet

To be honest it probably isn't worth the effort unless you've explored all the other tuning options, there are a few and most of them cheap without as much hassle as changing the turbo and gaskets.
You want to start with the right engine/turbo, or make the most of the one you've got.

What power/torque have you got and at what revs, what would you like to improve and what isn't standard on your SR20DET set-up?
I should be able to give you a few pointers as to the cheapest or best bang-for-buck modifications.

[Edited on 9/1/12 by ChrisB200SX]

It's just bolted in straight from my standard 14a.landrover intercooler and about a mile less of intake pipes.fast enough but the temptation wil never go to get it faster!

It's just bolted in straight from my standard 14a.landrover intercooler and about a mile less of intake pipes.fast enough but the temptation wil never go to get it faster!

Get a chip first, way easier and cheap
Probably best to improve the intercooler next, then increase the boost to about 17psi. Electronic boost controller, adjustable actuator or a couple of washers behind the standard actuator.

Any of those thing will make as big a difference as changing the turbo, all of them together will make a much bigger improvement though.