andyace
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| posted on 17/1/05 at 10:54 PM |
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Sorry undecided, lost you a little bit there.
All I am trying to determine is what people who have bought the kit think is included as previous posts seem to contradict what the GTS website is
saying.
But you are quite right and I will take it up with Darren myself. Will let you all know when I get an answer.
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dozracing
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| posted on 18/1/05 at 06:59 AM |
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Would guess the Indy is £995 + VAT. Last time i spoke to Protech MK's sales have fallen through the roof. 200 cars one year and down to 80 by my
calculations last year, whereas looks like Luego have gained what MK lost.
There is no way i could survive running MK on only 80 kits a year, even with all the parts sales. They must make considerably more profit on each item
than i do.
Did anyone else see the Robin Hood monster at the Autosport show? God have they got a cheek or what trying to sell that as a race car. Lord help
us.
Why do you need 3 pages of discussion, when 1 email to me would suffice?
The GTS Locost kit is the cheapest and most comprehensive around. If you look back a month i'm doing an offer where i will beat any of the
competitions offers, either it'll be cheaper for the kit, or i'll provide more stuff.
The DeDion axle is £150 on its own and the trailing arms etc, are not included.
What i have offered people is for January, DeDion axle kits are free delivery.
Kind regards,
Darren
[Edited on 18/1/05 by dozracing]
[Edited on 18/1/05 by dozracing]
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chunkielad
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| posted on 18/1/05 at 12:11 PM |
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Emailed Darren and got kind courteous replies. Issues have been dealt with swiftly (apart from when he had the cheek to be at a show )
Thanks Darren.
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ned
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| posted on 18/1/05 at 01:15 PM |
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Well, I'm confused:
--------------------------------------------
posted on 9/2/04 at 04:47 PM
I've just priced up what I'd need for he dedion rear end and it has come to [shock] £282.50 + delivery [/shock]
this isn't much cheaper than the mk rear end which i had priced up a couple of months ago.
what makes me even more annoyed is that i had a set of trailing arms and a panhard rod that i sold for only £25 and the trailing arms alone from gts
are £44.
I'm annoyed now
Ned.
----------------------------------------
posted on 9/2/04 at 09:26 PM
Ned,
How do you work out that its £200+?
In the £150 you get the Panhard rod, DeDion axle, trailing arms. The only thing you need is the diff mounts unless you fancy making your own, they are
only £12. So its a long long way off your sums.
Please don't publish prices like this when they are inaccurate as its gives people the wrong impression.
Whats more important is the comparison of prices against the other suppliers and i think you'll find that you can't get parts from MK or
Luego cheaper. You probably can from Lolocost, but, then why would you want to settle for inferior quality for a pound or two saving.
Kind regards,
Darren
-----------------------------------
That was coming up for a year ago, so that's inflation i guess..?!
beware, I've got yellow skin
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chunkielad
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| posted on 18/1/05 at 02:20 PM |
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Yes those prices are a year ago mate - maybe there's a problem with steel prices, maybe he was so cheap before he couldn't make a living
and has had to put the price up. At the end of the day, if you don't want to pay it, buy somewhere else.
I'm not being arsey mate  I just see it from the self employed side of things - My prices are about double what they were last year as I
UNDERPRICED myself lastyear to get a bigger client base. I LOST a LOT of money!!!
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blueshift
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| posted on 18/1/05 at 02:25 PM |
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I don't really want to add to the pile of people saying "i think maybe it's like this" and so on, but I think maybe it's
like this:
I seem to remember talking to darren about the pricing and what's included in the kit. He changed fabricators a while back and his costs went
up, I think he opted to split the dedion kit rather than just rack up the price, so you pay similar money for just the axle now where you used to get
the other bits.
maybe that's partly because people like me keep pestering him with silly questions like "can I have the kit without the rear arms because
I'm using bluebird ones.. or without xyz because I'm trying to save a tenner and make my own..."
By the way, I have the dedion bar (custom built with 4" wider bracketry) and various other stuff from darren; shocks, bushes, quickrack - and
the quality is universally excellent.
[Edited on 18/1/05 by blueshift]
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undecided
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| posted on 18/1/05 at 07:31 PM |
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what bugs me is the fact you want or don't want to pay for things but insist your car is worth thousands when finished.......having seen some of
the "homemade" tat at shows makes me wonder how they got sva in the first place let alone be worth anything.
So unless you can make it yourself (not a half arsed bodged effort either)you have to buy it..i think the law should change and that fabricated parts
be made by reputable firms and not bodged in a shed somewhere to later emerge as the next "killing machine"
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undecided
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| posted on 18/1/05 at 07:34 PM |
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doing some half arsed course at tech to learn how to use a mig doesn't make anybody a fabricator....that takes time!
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Peteff
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| posted on 18/1/05 at 07:40 PM |
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Undecided?
The only thing that's failed on my home made piece of tat is a kosher Maxi bottom ball joint. For somebody who's undecided you sound like
you've already made your mind up about Locost builders.
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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undecided
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| posted on 18/1/05 at 08:20 PM |
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No not at all, it just annoys me when there are those with nowt better to do than bitch about why so and so charges x and the others charge
y......when you can make it yourself for a lot less........What i am saying is:
Firms such as GTS, MK etc charge what they charge because they need to earn a LIVING and whilst do so they have raised the quality of Kit cars no
end.........Homebrewed cars can and do bugger that hard work up........Not saying they are all tat..but a lot are!!!!!
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JoelP
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| posted on 18/1/05 at 08:56 PM |
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Well mine certainly is...
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craig1410
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| posted on 18/1/05 at 09:49 PM |
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Don't assume that just because something is made by someone else that it must be better than something you made at home. In many cases nothing
could be farther from the truth!! As was said above, manufacturers have to pay costs and still make a profit. For some that means cheap and cheerful,
for others it means beautifully engineered but expensive. Somewhere in the middle you will find a nice balance.
I once spent most of a day making up 8 suspension brackets, which I could have bought for about £1.50 each. Why? Because I wanted to get on with my
build and didn't want to have to wait for them to be sent to me. I also wanted them to be the ideal size for my purposes to accommodate castor
adjustment washers. I charge my hobby time at £5 per hour and therefore my brackets are worth say £40 instead of the £12 they would have cost me from
a 3rd party. Does that make my car worth more? Yes and no!!
Anyway, in Ned's defense, I think he was justifiably confused after getting slapped down previously for quoting what has turned out, 1 year on,
to be the correct price. I don't think Ned is complaining about the price as £150 inc vat is fair for a de-dion axle. I was once quoted £150 by
Dax for their de-dion axle without any brackets but they didn't really want to sell me one and were quoting a 3 week lead time. That was nearly
two years ago too!
Cheers,
Craig.
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ned
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| posted on 19/1/05 at 11:18 AM |
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Craig,
Point well made, thanks.
Ned.
[Edited on 19/1/05 by ned]
beware, I've got yellow skin
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Lawnmower
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| posted on 24/1/05 at 05:29 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by chunkielad
Yes those prices are a year ago mate - maybe there's a problem with steel prices, maybe he was so cheap before he couldn't make a living
and has had to put the price up. At the end of the day, if you don't want to pay it, buy somewhere else.
I'm not being arsey mate I just see it from the self employed side of things - My prices are about double what they were last year as I
UNDERPRICED myself lastyear to get a bigger client base. I LOST a LOT of money!!!
I think steel prices doubled last year, Blame the Chinese- I think they are on a manufacturing boom.
Thats also why scrappy's at the moment will collect your old car for free, instead of you paying them for it.
(I may be wrong)
Inflation sucks, Imagine what the figure would be if house prices got taken into the equation.
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AdamR
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| posted on 1/2/05 at 06:09 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by craig1410
I charge my hobby time at £5 per hour...
Crikey! By that logic, hand-cutting the steel for 60% of my chassis has cost me about £250. I could have bought my self a nice electric saw for that!
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undecided
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| posted on 1/2/05 at 07:49 PM |
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well some people think doing it themselves will be cheaper but usually it isn't because the resale value will and always does reflect this.
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JoelP
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| posted on 1/2/05 at 08:35 PM |
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i like the idea of applying a value to hobby time - some stuff is free (breaking things!) others would be 5er an hour, but some stuff would have to be
£25 an hour (like pissing about with cycle wing brackets )
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Peteff
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| posted on 1/2/05 at 09:26 PM |
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So on that basis
The front wing mounts should be the dearest part of the car eh Joel
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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craig1410
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| posted on 1/2/05 at 09:34 PM |
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The figure you come up with is irrelevant but I personally think that you have simply got to value your own time in some way.
Try this:
Each time you fabricate something whether it be a single suspension bracket or a complete de-dion axle, add up the cost of the parts and labour. Then
compare this with a similar off-the-shelf item and see how they match up...
Hopefully what you will find is that as you gain experience you will be able to approach and perhaps even better the cost of an off-the-shelf item.
Another way to look at it is to build something and count the hours you took to build it (be honest...). Then take the off-the-shelf price and divide
by the number of hours you took to build it. You might be shocked at the result!!
Above all, enjoy your build, it's good value in the end......or so I'm told!!
Cheers,
Craig.
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undecided
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| posted on 1/2/05 at 10:02 PM |
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Piece of mind is somthing that springs to mind, i am happy to do certain things but others i would prefer to buy from known source to ensure
safety.
Making your own chassis will not really save any money in the the long run....If we all bought them in it would help keep those firms making them
alive.
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JoelP
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| posted on 1/2/05 at 10:15 PM |
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if i was building a standard chassis i would definately buy it now - next project will be neither standard nor low cost!
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craig1410
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| posted on 1/2/05 at 10:57 PM |
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Undecided,
I agree that buying a chassis is probably just as cheap as making one but for me the whole point in making my own chassis is to prove to myself that I
can. It is a most satisfying feeling when the car sits on it's own 4 wheels for the first time as many will know.
However, your point about peace of mind is an interesting one. I always in the past have performed all my own vehicle servicing and repairs and
I'd say I'm a decent mechanic. However, not so long ago my car needed a new clutch and I couldn't really be bothered with the
hassles of crawling around under the car trying to disengage the gearbox from the engine (FWD car) with no lift or ramp etc. It was also in the autumn
and quite cold and damp outside and of course the Locost was hogging the garage...
So I entrusted the work to a highly regarded local mechanic with an excellent reputation for quality etc etc. In fact I knew him personally and he is
indeed a top bloke.
Anyway, to cut a long story short my Wife picked the car up for me as I wouldn't be home in time for the garage closing and drove the car home 3
or 4 miles with our 3 kids in the back. When I got home she complained about a clunking noise when the car was reversing and I went out to take a
look..... As soon as I drove the car backwards I knew exactly what was wrong and indeed to my horror the brake calipers had not been tightened on one
side and one bolt had fallen out on the way home and the other was hanging by about 2 threads. The caliper was rattling around inside the wheel which
was the cause of the noise. I went to the guys house that evening and lets just say that I got things sorted pretty damn quick. He was genuinely as
shocked as I was having entrusted the work to one of his mechanics and being a family friend he too couldn't bear the thought of what might have
happened...
Anyway, my point is that an engineering firm is only as good as the quality processes it has and if those processes rely on one guy to tighten a
couple of bolts then one day they will be missed. The same is true of welding a chassis and if this is what you do every day of the week then it is
impossible to be sure that you welded every joint from all angles on any given chassis hence the need for quality inspections. The problem is that QA
inspections cost money and eat into margin. Now I'm not perfect either and I have no Quality guy checking my work but I can just about remember
attaching every single tube and because this is not a commercial operation I can go way over the top in terms of checking my own work without worrying
about the costs. I also painted my chassis by hand with a brush and in fact found 2 or 3 missed welds during the process. I bet these would have
slipped through had the chassis been powder coated as might be the case with a commercial chassis.
Before the commercial chassis' producers jump on me, I am not suggesting that my chassis is better quality than theirs nor am I suggesting that
commercial chassis' are dangerous. However, to make money you need to have just enough quality to get the job done without pushing the costs
through the roof. On this basis, I know for a fact that my chassis has cost me more than the £600 odd that a commercial one would have cost me.
Cheers,
Craig.
[Edited on 1/2/2005 by craig1410]
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dozracing
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| posted on 2/2/05 at 06:02 AM |
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Hi Craig,
If you have the required welding skills then i would encourage people to make their own chassis as its enormously rewarding.
I have been encouraging people to make their own versions of mine, or at least to have a go. I think you learn an awful lot and even if you have to
give up half way through because you are not happy with the results, and buy a chassis, you still have those new found skills and appreciation for
what goes into it.
I think you need suppliers who are proud of the parts they make, then you know they are good quality. Luckily with sportscars the people making them
generally have an interest in the parts they make and make a good job.
These days the average mechanic is not a highly qualified school leaver and other than sticking Fast Car stickers on their own Fiestas has no real
interest in the work they do.
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craig1410
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| posted on 2/2/05 at 12:55 PM |
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Hi Darren,
Yes I agree, I have enjoyed building my chassis hugely (most of the time at least ) and would indeed have built a GTS chassis had the newly
released W7DE version been available when I started. I really envy people who are just starting to build now because it must be sooo much easier to
know that all the parts are available off the shelf from companies like GTS for those times where your motivation is at a low point and you need to
"buy some progress" to gee yourself up a bit.
An example of this being the fact that GTS now supply wider bodywork for those like myself who are building +4" wider chassis. Unfortunately,
despite you and I making considerable efforts to drum up enough interest in this a few months ago I ended up buying the narrow bodywork from you and
am still in the process of doing a cut 'n' shut on this to fit my chassis. Retrospect is a wonderful thing eh???
Anyway, I think next time I build a car I will start from a chassis and bodywork kit and focus my attention on the constructional aspects.
That's the bit I enjoy most.
Cheers,
Craig.
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